Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of startup Therapy. I'm Wil schroder founder and Ceo of startups dot com along with my co host, Elliot's near the ceo of startups dot com. And today we're gonna talk about how we get paid as startup founders and how we get paid on what we finish and not what we start. Something commonly kind of misunderstood. We talked to lots of founders all the time about some, you know, next big idea as it's something that they have in their head. This idea is tantamount to actually being successful in by way of that, a payout. I'd love to unpack this a bit and really discuss how every time we start something, we're not only resetting the clock for how long it will take to have our next success were also resetting the probability that will have a hit really at all. So you talked to a ridiculous number of founders that have for a long, long time, what would you say is going through their heads when they say, let me drop what I'm doing and start this new thing. It's a great question and it's usually a fairly sobering conversation when I think about the concept of how long it actually takes to see a startup through. It reminds me of my dad, when I said that I think I want to be in the NFL and then he he laid out in so many dads have done this. He laid out all the numbers and I was like, dad, I don't think I want to be in the NFL, right buddy, how that works? It's not, it's not quite as ugly in the, in the startup universe as far as hit rate, but telling people or having people understand how long this actually takes. As I said earlier is really, really sobering. I think there's this common misconception that we'll get into that if I have a great idea, I already have the outcome, that's one piece. The second piece is when people say I'm gonna pivot, which oftentimes just means I'm going to work on the same bad idea for a while or I'm going to fresh start, they don't know what that costs. And I gotta say, dude, I mean how many startups have you started now? nine, those are just the ones that you know, kind of made it through. So you, you are a very unique case study and what to do and what not to do on this. Yeah, oh my God, I don't even know where to start. So you know, as a, as a point of reference. So let's, let's start here. Some folks don't know this In about 2001, I started essentially an incubator, but before an incubator is really a thing other than Idealab. but it was essentially for my own ideas and I just had a million ideas and I just come out of an agency world and I wanted to apply the agency model of working a lot of a lot of things towards startups and so at first it sounded awesome because I always like I get to pursue this idea and this idea and this idea and here I'll never forget, here was my thesis. If starting one company could yield this much success. What about starting five? Like with the same thought process which is if having one child is fine, why not have five at the same time? Wouldn't that be five times five times more fun? Forget about the work. And so I mean just to be fair, it was just such a naive viewpoint. On the other hand, I just part of the knife, I didn't know what was about to happen. So here's what happened over the next 10 years in L. A. you were part of this. You know, we spun up company after company after company and they weren't bad companies, you know, some of them were really good ideas and some of them actually turned into what is startups dot com today. The problem is every single time I would add the next company, I would inherently there's no way around this split focus from the last company. Now let's just dig into that for a second as founders, our probability of success, The odds against us are so infinitely high. If we then say, you know what, not only is this so hard to get right if you spend every waking hour, but how cool would it be if I spend half as many hours to make the same thing I get? Like when I say this now it sounds ridiculous but at the time it sounded like a good idea. But isn't this essentially what these founders are talking about every time? And look there's a part of the founder D. N. A. That's excited to solve problems so I appreciate that. It's just really hard to have the discipline to see the experiment all the way through. I heard a good Alex tim interview from route pretty recently that referred to the startup journey as a treasure map. And you know, route was started, you know, they just I. P. O. And it was started years and years ago and Alex probably started it even before we realized, but as you you as you've pursued down this this treasure map, I think two things kind of happen. One is you get some negative early feedback and you say the dreaded, I'm gonna pivot, which again means you're gonna Basically apply the same idea slightly differently in waste 7-10 more years or they say okay I'm going to push this one along a little bit but I'm going to start something else. I'm gonna, you know, there's a there's a shinier ball somewhere else because I got that feedback and now I feel like there's something else I can do and I think the challenge with that again, having gone through this personally, you know, to complete some of that thought process around the incubator, I end up launching eight companies out of that. The last three were venture funded companies. So you know, these weren't just like a landing page idea that I did in a startup weekend and was running these were actually fully funded companies with full staffs, product in market etcetera. And what I would come to learn 10 years later, One, I took about 10 years off of my life because running one startup is hard enough trying to run, you know, five at the same time, which is essentially what happened at one point was just a total nightmare. But what it really did is it guaranteed, I wouldn't be successful. And so while it gave me an amazing amount of experience because I lived five different lives at almost exactly the same time in the same day, I would be getting a call about how one company was gonna get this amazing round of funding from these great investors while the other company, unfortunately Elliot, the one you worked at, I was getting nobody. Um, and you got to see all these different versions, but the only consistency there was, I started to realize That no one I knew was consistently successful by doing things half as much right. In fact, it started to occur to me and I think I mentioned this in another podcast around the time where things were like, it kind of occurred to me for no good reason was the year that hubspot filed to go public. And that's because I knew dar mesh before hubspot? And he and I were he was working on something, it's still around called on startups dot com which is a community for startups. And I was, you know, running the earlier versions of what's now startups dot com. And he was telling about the idea. I didn't understand it. The moral stories while I said, sounds good, I'm going to go do 10 other things. Dharma is just did that, he just did hubspot. He focused on just that over the next seven years. And when things came full circle when I'm sitting with a bunch of random startups that I've got in my hands and he's I. P. O. In hubspot. I'm thinking to myself, damn, like what would have happened if I had just focused on one thing actually, you know, what happened startups dot com, that's what would happen. And here it is in the reality is we've been focus, we've had the benefit of experience, but we've been focused on this mission for about a decade. As crazy as that sounds correct. Which is why it worked. Now, I'm not saying that the idea was inherently good and we've talked about this, we didn't even know what the idea was initially. The reason it worked isn't because it was a good idea. The reason it worked is because we stuck with it For 7 to 10 years. And so like why don't we talk a little about that. Let's talk about how long it actually takes to mature a good idea or a bad idea because I think before we get into any of the other factors, this is the one thing where if you don't understand the time commitment, you won't get to the other parts of it anyway. I think that's that's incredibly appropriate. And typically I want to talk about kind of what goes through the founders had at the early stages as they scale something. When you're starting a startup, you have outlandish disproportionate victories, right? Whether it's your first partner, whether it's your first hire as you start to scale and grow a startup and push through the experiment. Those victories get smaller and smaller and less meaningful and less meaningful, right? So there's a little bit of a kind of a, not necessarily a motivation, but sometimes there's an excitement problem kind of when you get to year five and you feel like things are stalled out. Sure. And I also think that, you know, we talk about this internally, if you're going to commit to any idea again, a good idea or a bad idea, It still takes at least about three years to figure out whether this is a good idea or bad idea. Now there's an ungodly amount of startup lore that's been created a narrative that would speak to the opposite and it started all around the lean startup movement and the idea was this, the idea was I have an idea, I set up a landing page, I run some traffic against it and based on that, you know, I optimize or I fail and go pivot to do something else. That's an awesome way to fail as often as you can. And it's so dangerous because, you know, startups don't work because your idea was perfect the first time startups work because you're willing to keep hammering the idea until it's the right idea. And I think that's the part that really messes with people because I think we're looking for these instant high five buying signals and I tell founders all the time, you're not going to get the real buying signals, the ones you're actually looking for Until probably year three because it'll take that much time to refine what you did to get the right product market fit to get the right staff to get the right pitch to get all these pieces to come together to start to really see it for what it is. But folks who are thinking I'm going to restart, restart, restart are never willing to make the commitment. It's kind of like they plant a seed in the next month, they try to eat the plant, right, right? When it's not matured, it's still better. Well, right. And they don't understand that startups. Companies, this isn't even startups, companies take a long time to grow. And if you're not committed to that growth to the time that it takes, you're just gonna keep failing, You're just gonna keep pulling that, you know, that that route out waiting for a plan, it happens all the time. And I'm saying it's like an Andy you point this out, I was the worst of them just set a massive scale for nearly a decade. So I'm not pointing fingers at anybody. I'm speaking from firsthand experience. Yeah. And you know, kind of going back to the startup mentality. I think there's a bit of a problem in how young founders and or new founders model the behavior, Okay, young founders, early stage founders, new founders are seeing people like Elon musk and Jack Dorsey and saying, yeah, of course it's possible. Right, right. It's, you know, it's also possible to be tom brady, it's not probable, but it's possible. So, so that's one aspect of the bad modeling, the other, which I think you pointed out is, and no, you know, I have no issues with lean startup. I think it's incredibly useful is this concept of having binary outcomes too early and being a little bit hyperbolic with success and failure, definitely. So the entire concept around how fast they start up should be and the stories were told and the North stars that a lot of people follow Are wrong for 99.9% of the people building a business read and here's the thing, the only stories that you read are the most successful ones which often have a disproportionate amount of success, you know what it looks like in a short period of time, but that's not the reality. Yes, those successes do exist and the reason that you read about ones or tens of them is because they're so incredibly infrequent, which is why they get written about. But that's not the core of the narrative. The core of the narrative is It takes 7-10 years to make anything successful and if you were to bucket, it if you were to put it in kind of like general brackets of how these things tend to play out the first three years is just figuring out what the hell the business even is. It's not the first three months. You know, it's not this idea that again, I'm running a whole bunch of, of landing page tests that tells me how the whole business works. It gives you indicators as to where you should make changes, but it shouldn't give you an indicator as to whether or not you should be in the business at all. And this isn't the same as saying you may just be in a really bad business, may be a dumb product. But what I see more often than not is that people assume whatever that initial idea is if it doesn't work right out of the gates exactly the way it was intended, that it must be a bad idea. But my point is every idea is a bad idea when you start absolutely what you need to do is you need to say this is raw clay, we're going to start here and we're gonna keep shaping it, shaping it, shaping it until we figure out where we need to be and at some point if we've tried every possible combination and it doesn't work yeah, bail right? But until then there has to be a recognition of the time commitment. So those first three years are all about just kind of shaping the clay The next 3-4 years. If you've got the clay right? If you've got product market fit, if you've got some revenue Are starting to see whether or not like how big of a business this even is right? Is it a $250,000 business? Is it a $250 million dollar business in either? I could be okay. But the point is that's usually the part of the evolution where you start having those conversations The last three or 4 years in this journey, have a lot more to do with what do we want to do with this thing now, it is, whatever it is, what do we do with it? You know, maybe it's a big business, a small business, it's big, maybe we're thinking I. P. O. If it's small we're thinking, you know, how do we manage this and you know, what does our life look like, how to go forward. But that's the life cycle. I get the sense that a lot of folks are trying to pack that entire decision tree Into 60-90 days. I totally agree. And if I'm to kind of pare it back the three phases It takes about three years to truly establish the problem and solution. Okay, correct. The next three years is where you push the tam as hard as you can, yep. And then the next two plus years are either a can I grow this into something meaningful in my eyes or be how do I build this thing to sustain it? Exactly? And look, Imagine if somebody had said to you every time you go to start something, you have to sign this contract that you're going to invest 7 to 10 years. You know, often founders would be like, well, I'm not going to sign that, that's ridiculous. Whereas implicitly, that's actually what you're doing When you launch a business, you're either committed to it for 7-10 years to make it successful or you're not If you're saying, I don't want to sign the contract, what are you really saying about your commitment to making that business actually work totally true, especially if you desperately believe in the problem and believe that the problem is out there. I think that's a big part of it. And I think, you know, it's like we'll take ours when we started startups dot com. Our whole thesis was simply that founders have no idea what they're doing because they've never done it before. Right? We're almost always all doing this for the first time. There's very little indication as to what you should be doing and how to handle all this, how to be a founder, how to be a ceo how to be all these things, and we want to be able to walk them through the process. And what was cool about that is it didn't really matter what form factor that took. You know, that could be a sas business or consulting business, it could be any number of things, but we really cared about that problem and what we did well, and I'm saying this in retrospect, As we said, we're just gonna spend the next 7-10 years working on that problem, whatever it would turn out to be, it turned out to be startups.com. But I think you said something that I really like We said, this is a problem we're willing to invest in, this is a problem. We're willing to sign up for 7-10 years to solve Now, what's interesting about startups.com is you launched kind of iteration one and what was that? 2003? Oh yeah, okay, so I want to speak to that and by no means is this a model, but this is an example of how long it takes your concept because your front runner and entrepreneurship was, technology is going to enable everybody being an entrepreneur. Okay, that's 2003, I would argue that that didn't really solidify Until like 2010 where an entrepreneur was an aspiration, not a reaction. So we front run ran the market for a while and we were really, really cagey about being able to keep the lights on and being able to develop services, but there are situations where it takes a little bit of time and again, I don't recommend this for the markets mature. I think about Fitbit, remember when Fitbit was that weird wearable belt buckle and it was, yeah, it was weirdos like me that were like, this is really cool, guess what nobody else cared, nobody else cared until the market started to catch up and the form factor started to change. I think that Fitbit belt buckle to Fitbit wearables, probably six years alone, just in that iteration. Right? And think about it, the founders had to care enough about that problem to be able to weather all the changes that would inherently be necessary to get to that outcome. You see people lose sight of that. I think just the nature of it, we're all looking for those early high five indicators, you know, the early high fives that say yes, you're exactly where you're supposed to be, If it's year three and you're looking at the ceiling at three in the morning saying what the fund did I get myself into, you're exactly where you're supposed to be, right, because that's where everyone is in year three, no matter good or bad, that's where everyone is. You know, another benefit to the concept of the 7-10 years is it will help act as a regulator for the problem you're gonna chase, okay, So, you know, like, you know, you and I chased some tams and chase some markets and chase some themes, no doubt about that. Okay. But if you said to somebody, You're going to work on this for 7-10 years, you better find a funding problem you care about if they knew to your point that they were going to sign that contract, I think we'd get founders that We're ultimately happier and more enthusiastic to go down that path for 7-10 years. I can think specifically about one of the startups that we did, that I just wasn't all that excited about. It was again, it was a really attractive market and a really attractive solution. But if if every founder thought, okay, I'm in this for a decade, the question is, what could you work on for a decade? Well, actually, let's let's expand on that a little bit, let's talk about what will a decade cost you, Right, okay. And so here's where it gets interesting. You know, I'm in my third decade of starting companies. So I've been doing them during my twenties, my thirties, my forties When you're 22 years old And you make a commitment to something and you burn 5, 6 years and it doesn't work out. It sucks like anything else. It does. But you're still in your twenties, you've got literally your entire life, right, right. You do it again in your thirties, stakes go up a little bit and this varies a little bit per person, per lifestyle, but chances are maybe you've started a family, or at the very least, maybe, you know, you've got married or whatever your, your life is changing a little bit and burning about five years during those years is actually pretty important because your thirties very much start to define your earning potential for the rest of your life. And so that's a really critical time to burn those years Then when you get in your 40s and beyond, it's the first decade where you actually may not be able to replace the time. So, well said, If I burn the time from the time, I'm 42-49, can I get a job when I'm 49? Yes, but I'm competing at a much different level at that point, and more importantly, I don't have that many reps left to go. The reason I bring this up is because every single time we say, hey, I've got this new thing that I want to do. I think we also have to calibrate it directly to our stage in life and say, now what is the cost for this stage of my life? If I'm not committed, if I don't see it through The pivots sound cool, but I'm telling you, pivots for me at 46 versus what they would have been at 26 are dramatically different. At 26 is a learning experience at 46. You know, I've got a family to take care of. Like there's, there's a real cost that I can't unwind and look you and I have seen the other side of this with some pretty close friends who have doubled down, worked on a startup for five years, pivoted, started again, started again and we're watching them try to re enter the job market and it's devastating. It is, it is. And so those pivots, you know, or those new starts, they have a real opportunity cost. So when we're thinking about it saying, hey, I'm going to maybe throw away what I'm doing now and go do a new thing. It's just, it's worth noting that we're going to burn through essentially a critical decade of our lives and we have to look at that and say the worst thing I can do Is burned through a decade of my life, i.e. 30s for me and have nothing to show for it now, I had some exits, it wasn't that great, But, but my point was, if that were the only thing I had ever done, if I didn't have success before that or after that I would have been screwed. And so I really want to hammer home the point that when we make these pivots, when we make these changes, we make these restarts. We have to recognize that even if things go bad, It'll still cost us a minimum of five years if we're saying things went bad and we only spent a year, Honestly, that's not that big of a deal. And I would also argue you can't get anything done in a year anyway, so, you know, you just weren't committed. I mean when you think about being in your thirties, you know, having gone through the startup that you and I did together, that, that that didn't end well, I've got to imagine you think about getting those years back, I do in, you know, I can say this because we're on the other side, it could have turned out very differently that I can view those as some really, really meaningful experiences in connections that we've made that have allowed us to scale startups dot com. However, it could have easily gone the other way and then I'm, you know, at the time, a 37 year old startup guy with an interesting set of experience trying to re enter the job market right? Right, totally, which is gruesome, totally gruesome. And the lesson for me that one of the big takeaways for me was don't work on something you don't care about And that's exactly what we did. Yeah, a painful lesson, but a painful lesson that probably cost us 3-4 years, not 10 years. True, very true, but still brutal. And I think where it blew up for me Is that I assumed that if I was successful at one thing that I would inherently be successful at the next thing, right? So The first company I did, we grew to $700 million, you know, amazing outcome. And so I'm thinking, oh, I guess that's how companies start, because the only thing I'd ever, that's the only thing I'd ever done, right. And so I had no concept for how unique that was. I didn't have a concept, I don't think for how many other people really drove that business, you know, in its success, etcetera. And so I just felt very attached to the outcome that said, I made the junior mistake. And I see this all the time in saying, well, that was successful. So probably what I'm going to do with this next thing is going to be at least is successful, which is maybe the greatest mistake that I've proven proven is not true. And let me show it two ways if you don't, if you don't mind me getting into it. So one was coming out of a successful company and then running another company and it was, it was okay, We did okay, not great. Actually, I take that back. We did well enough that I thought, oh shoot, I've just done it twice. Third time, fourth time, 10 time won't matter which was a huge fallacy. But here's another version on the end of it. After I've done all those incubator companies, etcetera. I mentioned that the last company we built out of the incubator was called unsubscribe dot com and it was, it was there to get you off your email before unsubscribe links really existed. And my co founder was a guy named Jamie Simon off and Jamie and I had both done a whole bunch of companies prior to that, we teamed up to do unsubscribe dot com raised some money, etcetera interested. Okay, not great, like it actually it wasn't that great of a company and I thought about that and I'm like, this is interesting. Jamie and I both had success before. He, he had sold a company called phone tag, I had sold a company a couple companies prior, we both had lots and lots of reps and yet here we teamed up on something and it was a pretty good idea and a pretty good space, you know, emails, big tam and nothing happened, right. And I thought to myself, damn, every startup is a reset of probability just because we may have had success on other ones is absolutely no indicator that we're going to have success on the next one and the reason I bring up that story is because you already know how this ends. Jamie and I then leave and go start our own companies, mind becomes startups dot com, his becomes ring the doorbell company, right again. Same guys, right. The difference is in that time when we were doing and subscribe, Jamie was focused on other things, I was focused on other things. Neither of us was really all in afterwards when we both went our separate ways and build just one thing that we're, you know, inherently focused on, we increased our probability by being focused, but it just so happened that that next idea for for he and I was the right idea, You don't even see like everyone is different and so there's no guarantee that the success we have on one idea is an indicator of the next one. Everyone's starting from scratch in both in your path and Jamie's path. The common factor is sticking to it, right? Didn't Jamie go through, wasn't it? Initially a crowdfunding company, then door bought, then it got to become ring over the course of, you know, 67 years totally, you know, he had, I think it's called the power pot that he did on Kickstarter back in the day. This is like 2011, I'm guessing give or take and he had been working on a whole bunch of ideas and and the the truth is, you know, and those ideas didn't work either, you know, in, in their initial concepts, but he stuck with with his concept around being an inventor around trying to find that one thing that he could scale as a consumer product. And I think he and I are certainly acutely aware and I think of a lot of other entrepreneurs who have been through this before are acutely aware. You can't predict the next one, right? No matter how good you are, no matter how smart you are, no matter how connected you are. Right. Look at Quimby, Right, right. You're taking meg Whitman, you're talking Jeff Katzenberg and bring them together, raise a billion six in one of the most spectacular failures in history. You couldn't have a more connected, more capable, more, you know, experienced team, but their past success doesn't guarantee the next success. You can't illustrate that in more fine of a point. Yeah. I think that's about as bold of appointees can be made recognizing the cast of characters that are around that deal. Yeah. And I mean from our standpoint, when we look at, let's say, launching a new product and you and I talked about this all the time. We say, hey, we've got a new product, we've got, you know, certain customers that we already have in our customer base that would potentially buy that product. So we already know who the customer is. We've got customer acquisition taken care of. We know the market, we want to launch this thing. And to be fair, how often does that work for us? I don't even want to give the real answer here, that's a loaded question. But, but it's true, right? I mean more often than not it fails and this is with a proven market with proven customers, with proven people, you and I, that actually do this all day for a living and it's still that hard. So I think when folks are thinking about, hey, I want to start something, you know, knew one of the scenarios that I tend to see and I've seen this a lot in our founder groups lately. What happens is someone is working on a business. And let's say it's, I'm just making this up. It's a $3 million dollar business and they've been doing it for maybe five or six years and they're like, yeah, you know, I'm glad it's there. You know, it's finally paying my rent kind of thing. But I really want to start this wholly new idea. I always give the same advice. You've got this kind of bird in your hand and it's great. But don't assume that just because you built that, that this next thing has any chance of being successful, just based on your past success. Don't get me wrong, past success helps for a whole bunch of reasons, but it only gets you so far sequence. And so in my mind, what I try to caution folks is remember that every time you take your chips and put them on the table, Every hand you're getting dealt is a new hand. So for you to say, Hey, you know, I've made all this money in my $3 million dollar business. I guess I'm just gonna push a bunch of it into this next hand And assume that's going to hit three million as well. It's just a busted assumption. Yeah. In fact, It's a lower probability at $3 million. You've proven that people will pay for your solution And you're willing to start over at zero, which is a tough restart, right? Absolutely. You know what's interesting though is everybody thinks about starting as this victory, you know, X company started, they got funded and everybody's got all this fanfare around this new idea. But the reality is as founders. The only thing that is on our resume. The stuff that makes our Wikipedia of life are the finishes and so while starting sounds fun and it's cool to do. The truth is it's the finishing that not only pays us quite literally, but it's how we, we kind of memorialized the success of that. Do you see the same way? Yeah. And it's tough, right? It's a, it's a tough pill to swallow. You don't get paid for ingenuity, you get paid for fortitude and it's certainly a challenge to have enough self discipline to recognize that it's going to take time and recognize that this is going to take fortitude and it's an additional challenge to be able to communicate that to a team that's working their tails off. Well let's play that out. So it's year one, year 2 and we're hiring engineers, how do you explain to them what this commitment actually is in your mind? It's certainly not an easy explanation, but it's pretty cool that our current Chief Technology Officer was also the person that built the first major site for startups dot com. So there was something there from an explanation standpoint, We talked about this in another podcast. It's going to take humility, it's going to take transparency. Sure, let's look at you as an example, right? You have had big exits, you've come off a big story and there's no question that people signed on to the startups dot com project because they're like, OK, this guy knows how to create and exit, This guy knows how to create a big business, I'm jumping in. So let me flip that back around to you. We have had people that, you know, after three years have gotten a little bit of cabin fever and thought, look, I signed on with, will you know, don't I get to take a million bucks off the table now. Great. And I think that more and more, we're getting adept at making it clear that that's actually not how this works. Like there are some companies every now and again that find their own footing and and grow in scale and basically a record pace, but they're few and far between, they're they're by far the outliers, if you're fortunate enough to be in one, you know, congratulations. But if you want to be in the startup business, and I'm talking about folks that are joining startups and you expect to have an outcome, you also have to sign up for the long haul because those I. P. O. S or those, you know, big sales etcetera, take years and years and years to get close to. And I think the more important part, it's not just the years, it's when those years are, give an example. If you're doing everything right Then by like year five, you start to understand that this is going to be a real business. That means the people that came on for, you know, in year one in the very formative stages five years later, which in startup years is like 100 years. They're just starting to get their footing. Let's say you show up in your five now, you have way more equity, way less equity than anybody else did. It still doesn't occur to you that you've probably got five more years before this thing becomes, you know what, everybody's going to remember it as take, you know, the company started Blue Diesel, we merged into an ad agency and grew really quickly, But people don't know this, that ad agency was around for 20 years before we ever merged, right, so we're still a very small company when we started. But so the folks working there, That wasn't an overnight success, it took 30 years to get there in an entire lifetime in business years. And so I think for the staff, they need to understand that this is a very long commitment. But more importantly, none of it matters until we actually get to a finish. The finishing is what we get paid for here. That's the, that's the golden ticket. When you talk about folks like Elon musk or steve jobs, they're sort of remembered for what they started, but they'll be in the hall of Fame because of what they finished, how complete those finishes are and what they brought to the market that absolutely no one else
Wil Schroter: did. That's a wrap for this episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan on behalf of my partner Wil Schroder and all the startups dot com family thanking you for joining us and we hope you'll continue to join us. Be sure to subscribe rate and comment on itunes or wherever you love to listen to startup therapy. You can find all of our episodes at startups dot com slash podcast. If you're looking for more amazing resources to launch or grow your startup, be sure to head to startups dot com and check out startups unlimited. It's everything we have to offer from our online university to our amazing community of experts and founders and even all the tools we've built like biz plan, fungible and launch rock. It's everything a founder needs visit startups dot com slash begin that startups dot com slash b e g i N. You'll thank me later.