Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan from startups dot com, joined by Wil schroder ceo of startups dot com will as founders. We spend a lot of time thinking about all of the things that could go wrong and well sometimes they do right and sometimes all of the things go wrong and startups fail. So I was thinking today, why don't we talk about, what does that actually look like?
Wil Schroter: Yeah, I mean, what's interesting to me is when we talked about in previous episodes, you know, we talked about things like, am I safe and what could the, the downside look like, et cetera. What we're talking about today is that actual aftermath? But more importantly, what you do with that aftermath, because I think for a lot of founders, maybe they're going through this now, Maybe they are in the aftermath period where things definitely started to fall apart and now they're at a point where that business is done or it feels that way and now we're looking the other direction saying, okay, well what next, here's what, what next typically looks like and this is the part that I really want to get into to start. Here's what it looks like for me, that's
Ryan Rutan: more place to start.
Wil Schroter: So, Uh, circa 2007, maybe I've been starting this company called afford it.com that doesn't exist anymore. But in its moment, it was a hot little internet company. Uh, it doesn't matter what the concept is, I'll save it for another show. But the net of it is we ended up raising a bunch of money in short order in southern California Supreme, some really well named investors. You know, folks like founders fund. Um, Mark Suster invested personally from upfront VC. It's just a great group of people and we raised a bunch of money kind of like most startups do we make a big stink that we're here and we've, we've raised and we've got this big vision, we're bringing on people and all the things that we do. Well, you can probably guess it didn't work. So we went from hero to zero in probably the course of about two years a story I'll tell in more details some other time. What's relevant to today's story is I went to colossal failure in record time in that time where I was in essentially just failure mode. I started to analyze how I was feeling because I felt like shit and why I was feeling that way and really what I could have done differently And Ryan, I'm sure you've been through this, but at the time it's kind of hard to be real analytical about it because I think it's mostly emotional. What's your take?
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, well, you know, I think a big part of it too is that failure, you know, even when it's fast, it's rarely all at once. Right? So there's, there's a lot that leads up to it, right? And there's little signals. Um, and, and sometimes those founders were the last ones to admit that it's actually at that point. And so I think that there's this and it's probably just a self defense mechanism and in my case, I was still trying to fight, I was still trying to deny that it actually happened. And then once I was sure that it was, it's like, it's like any catastrophic event, you relive it over and over. I thought about individual conversations I'd had, what if I had hired that person, what if I hadn't hired that other person? You know, what were all the things, you know, and I just, I just kept reliving it in my mind over and over and over again the first time. And I really, really put myself through the wringer over it the first time I went through this, it was geez, what would circle were like circa 2003, I guess at this point. And so I was, you know, past my first company, which was successful, had exited that one, but I'm only a few years on a university at this point, still fairly young and, and I just took the lesson really hard, right? And I felt like I owed it to myself and the company to just beat the ship out of myself, not for any real reason, there wasn't an outcome from that. Yeah, but like, it was like, I felt like I had to self flagellating right? Like it was just like walking down the street, you know, whipping myself with chains, just so that I could, everybody knew that I was suffering appropriately, there wasn't any point to it at all and I don't recommend it, but that was absolutely what I did the first time,
Wil Schroter: You know, I think from my standpoint that you mentioned the self flagellation, I thought about all of the people that I had let doubt, right, I had let down. Obviously the people that invested in the business, obviously the people that were working at the business, we didn't have many customers, which is probably why we didn't have much more funding, didn't let too many of those people down, but and then it was, there was this bigger part and this is pure ego. We made a really big stink. No, I'm not going to say we I made a really big stink about what a great company this is going to be doing your typical run around town founder promotion and I made an acid myself just plain and simple. There's there's no better way to put it. I said I was going to do something big and I lost the championship right in front of everybody or at least that's how I felt about it. It turned out, no one else cared at all what's up. In fact, in fact, I would learn much later, but here's what's important at the time, that's not how I saw it. So at the time were just covered in maybe not self pity, but self doubt. It's a horrible place to be. And I think what I didn't know and what I'd love to cover in this episode is what I learned to do about it. You know, Ryan, again, I know you've been through, we've coached hundreds if not thousands of founders through situations like this. There is actually a game plan for this. There is a way to judo move all of this. But I think before we get into that, I think it's helpful to describe the situation so people can kind of see the same parameters that we're seeing. So along those lines, one of the things that I did early into this spiral downward was going to call it a journey. It didn't feel like a journey like there was no destination in mind. It was mostly just mostly just freefall is I was certain although nobody confirmed this, that everyone was mad at me or or maybe matt is not the right word, disappointed in me, right? And that I couldn't show my face. I'm not sure why I felt that way, but I know there's nobody
Ryan Rutan: you feel like you've just pointed at the fence, right? You're standing at home plate and you just pointed at the fence, right? You call your shot and then you subsequently swing at three bad pitches and struck out, that's what it feels like. That's what it feels like to you, to your point. Nobody else was actually watching, right? Nobody else saw the point to the fence. Nobody else realized that you even struck out. Well, some people are gonna know that you struck out, they're gonna know that it ended poorly, but it doesn't feel the same way to them, right? And and for whatever expectations you feel like anyone else had even investors, right? This is the game, right? This is what this is what they're doing. They know they're not all gonna win, right? As a founder. And we've talked about this before, we do sort of have to assume that we're going to win. We wouldn't play a game, we didn't think we could win. And and we have to assume that we're going to. So not winning feels like everything right? It feels like you've lost. Everything turns out that's not the way everybody else sees it and it's not even the reality for you as the founder. But in that moment, that's what it felt like a point of defense, three swings and a miss and you feel awful about it
Wil Schroter: a few times in my life, I've been pulled over for speeding. Not a lot, but enough. And every time I remember sitting on that highway thinking of all these cars that are passing at me looking at me judging me, right, saying that like, oh my God, you look at him. Lawbreaker. You know what they were thinking? I'm glad it wasn't me
Ryan Rutan: wasn't me. That's exactly it, right.
Wil Schroter: And so I can't help but feel like during that period in my life, that was the the the the feeling most people got it wasn't, you know, oh what an a hole he is. It was more like men glad it wasn't me now. Is that a crappy way to think about people maybe. But there's also some truth in it in as much as people just don't care about it the way you think they care. And I think from a first hand perspective that was the first hurdle I needed to get over because it it legitimately ruined my life for that period in time. And and had I not found some judo moves around it. I don't know what the long term impact would have been.
Ryan Rutan: How long was that period? How long did you, were you kind of stuck in the in the funk?
Wil Schroter: I would say there was, there was two periods, there was a 6 to 12 month period, which may not sound very long, but it is if you're living it, where I was I was broke, you know, just just mentally broke, emotionally broke. And then there was about a year period afterward where I was still shell shocked from it. And here's the crazy thing. So that's two years and that's two years with me doing something about it. Imagine if if I wasn't proactive or optimistic or I fell into depression or you know, you name any of the things you can layer on top of that, which are all very real. That was my best case scenario. However, here's what I would argue, it was my best case scenario because nobody else ever explained to me what I should have been doing with that time. You know, I was kind of figuring out as I go and that's not a great place to be.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, that's not, that's not a car you want to change the tires on while it's rolling, better to have a game plan and and be proactive about that. So let's let's dig into that. So, so, you know, luckily as founders, we get plenty of opportunities to fail. And so if we didn't fail right the first time, we can fail right? The second, the third or the fourth time. So what, what's the, what's your go forward plan look like?
Wil Schroter: Well, I mean, let's talk about what, what, what the start of failure looked like and we'll kind of compare that to some of the go forward plan. It's definitely not just about losing money, although for a lot of folks that, that was it, I had a little bit of cash. So it wasn't okay, here's, here's the better part to explain it. I had money, right? I had done well in previous ventures, so I had money, it didn't change a thing. Now. I've also lived most of my life not having any money. So let me be very pragmatic when I say this because somebody is thinking, yeah, you say that, but you had money, What I'm saying is emotionally, it didn't change a thing. I felt as horrible about my failure when I had money in the bank, as I did when I was totally broke. Now I had different means to do something about it and I could pay my mortgage etcetera. So I'm not trying to pretend it's it's apples to apples. But surprisingly, I didn't find that having money or even past success did anything to change my emotional state. It just felt horrible. And so failure for me. I I think for everybody, when they look at it, right, I'm sure you feel the way the same way. It's deeply emotional. It's very personal.
Ryan Rutan: It's absolutely personal, right? That's a
Wil Schroter: start up equipment child.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, you can no longer disassociate yourself from the business, especially at that moment, right? I think there are a lot of times where we are probably more personally connected to a company that we should be than there is at least mentally healthy. But that point of failure is where it just all falls back to you, right? Even, you know? And of course it's a it's a team effort to win, it's a team effort to fail. But as the founder, you're always going to bear the brunt of that blow and it just yeah, it feels it feels awful, but it does it and I think that the analogy of of, you know, the loss of a child might sound too strong
Wil Schroter: to anybody who has been, you
Ryan Rutan: know, and yet, like there's you go through a lot of the same emotions, right? You think about all the things that could have been, you think all the things that should have been what I could have done differently to prevent this, All of those same thought processes and, and emotional rollercoaster occurs, right? It's a, it's a very, very visceral experience and uh, yeah, it's horrible.
Wil Schroter: I think from the outside people look at it and say, oh, well, come on, that's just, it's just a job. You just lost a job and losing a job sucks. Look, if you get fired from a job, it sucks. This ain't that this is something so personal to you, that it feels like it's been ripped from you and it feels very differently. Uh, and and you you tend to dwell on it for a very, very long time and here's what it looks like when I, when I remember I looked back about that moment in time, Ryan, as you know, I'm a very outgoing person. I'm always hosting founder events and really, you know, out there in the community, etcetera. And then all of a sudden I wasn't you want to know why, because all of a sudden I'm a cocktail party among other founders and no one will talk to me, they'll talk to me, right, They don't dislike me, right? But it's awkward. We're kind of comfortable. Oh God, it's so uncomfortable
Ryan Rutan: for them and for them as well, right? Because
Wil Schroter: what do you, what do you say? Hey, what have you been up to? I know what you've been up to, you, you've raised a bunch of money and you failed publicly in front of everybody. Like everyone was like, you've been up to and so you're there making this really forced small talk about anything else. Um, you're trying to talk about their business, but put it on on their side, How am I going to talk about my business when I know yours just failed
Ryan Rutan: right? What I'm gonna do so close to me because, and this is, this reinforces two points. This is a pretty interesting little case study going back to the point about how personally we take these things and how it isn't about the financial outcome. I sold the company nine months after I sold it, the new ownership shuttered, it bankrupted, it went out of business. I felt horrible. I remember thinking like maybe I shouldn't have sold it. I mean, what else could I have done to? You know, I wish they'd reached out to me to help them turn it around. Like so many emotions that I went through my financial outcome was already set. I was done. He didn't cost me anything. Right? And so it tells you a bit about how personally we take these things that the demise of this business almost a year after I had sold it and was fully out the door. I still had a huge emotional reaction to that business closing. Of course, because I had put my life into that thing. I had, I had grown it from, nothing started it and and built it up to the point where I, you know, was able to sell it off, was super proud about the outcome and and then watched it die and it was horrible. Now on to the next piece a couple of months later at a cocktail party, I am standing across from the person who bought it from me and like what did you say at that point, right? It's so awkward like, hey, sorry, you weren't as good at that as I was or whatever, like, I don't know, it was just, it was super awkward, like I wanted to say something and we definitely did commiserate a little bit about the loss of the business, but like it was awkward as all hell
Wil Schroter: yeah, I agree. And you know that it's not just that conversation, it's the conversations where you're not in the room and you're wondering what's happening in those conversations and I hate to say it, but a lot of founders kind of get into a little bit of a sewing circle and if if I'm being super transparent, sometimes they're gossipy little bitches and in that time, you know, you're you're the punchline of of their discussions. Is it gross? Yes, it's a it's a horrible, you know, I think to be a part of whatever, but it happens, it's only worse when the people that are criticizing you or people that you know aren't founders themselves and don't understand what's going through, like where you're going through. That's a whole other discussion. But you know, when I think about it and I think about now, I'm worried about what all these other people are saying, number one, they're probably not saying much because they're more worried about their own lives. But number two, I can't change that. What's been done is done right? That ship has kind of sailed. So whatever people choose to say has already been said, and it took me a long time to wrap my head around that. And is is that ego? Yes. And of course it is. And it was supposed to be how could you ever create something from nothing, something that comes out of you and not have ego attached to it. I I'd be hard pressed to think in terms where you couldn't if you genuinely cared about it?
Ryan Rutan: Alright, So that's what it looks like. That's the that's the picture of what, how what and how a founder feels at that moment of failure and we're just essentially wrapped up in this ball of anxiety, what do we do with that?
Wil Schroter: Well here's here's what I wasn't doing with it. I was spending all my time worrying and probably feeling sorry for myself and doing all the things that probably any normal person would do. So I don't I don't regret those things, I don't take them away from me or anybody else. I mean it's pretty normal to to to feel that way. But this really interesting thing happened at some point in this process. I just, this is my analytical mind, I just started to think to myself, man, I kind of wish I had this much energy toward the end of that startup, failing, you know, I wish I was up with all of this, this kind of nervous energy if you will during the startup, because this is actually useful energy, I'm just applying it toward a useless exercise which is worrying and feeling sorry for myself. And I thought what if what if someone could judo move that energy into something positive, what might that look like? And it turns out my anxiety and my guests, a lot of other people's can be used for good or evil. You know, we we can harness that energy for sure and do something powerful with it, which you know what's what Ryan what you and I are doing right now with startups dot com or we could use it to our own destruction, you know what I mean,
Ryan Rutan: yep, Yeah, you can either build yourself up, you can pick yourself apart, it's the same amount of energy. But let's talk about how do you turn that corner because I think there is a period where I'm not sure you can just go straight from okay my startups failing, I'm going to judo move directly into using my anxiety for good. I feel like there is this sort of obligatory period of grieving. Do you, can you go back in time and remember like when that happened, What was it that happened that allowed you other than the realization? I think the realization is one thing, I mean we can, we can say this to people, they can hear us say it, use your anxiety for good, but how do you, how do you go from the depths of despair where you just feel like you have to beat yourself up to turning that energy around? Like is there something we can actively do to make that happen? I'm trying to go back in time and I'm not finding an obvious point where I would have been very receptive to this messaging. Right? What did you do?
Wil Schroter: I look for something else to put that time into? More specifically, I said I'm going to get involved in another startup now, it doesn't have to be a startup. I'm just a startup dudes, that, that was my answer. Yes, it has to be a startup, There's no other answer. No, but you can point it wherever you want, so long as you're pointing it somewhere positive. In other words, if you were to say, Hey, I'd rather take all that time and be in the gym for 12 hours a day, you'd be totally jacked. But beyond that, I don't think you can, from my standpoint, what I wanted to do was say if I'm going to take all this time and energy towards something, let me go put it toward another startup and Ryan, that was essentially the genesis of startups dot com. It the thought process and the whole narrative that I started to build was specifically me trying to point my canon in a different direction and I think that's interesting. I think it's fascinating actually because the moment we get back on the horse and start focusing on something positive again, we don't have time for those negative emotions. So I just went all in on a new concept and all of a sudden I found out I was still wildly anxious, I was still staying up till 3:00 AM. I still had a lot of that restless energy. I just wasn't spending it worrying about what happened two years ago, I was spending that energy trying to figure out how to get out of this hole to go do something new that I was excited about.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, so the hard redirect, right, just stop spending your time looking backwards. Hard redirect into something else, apply the energy there and move forward and, and you're right, it almost doesn't matter what it is. I think for a lot of startup founders, it's going to end up being another startup because just because um, but it really doesn't matter. It's the same advice you'd give to a friend who was going through any sort of Trauma breakup, the loss, whatever, which is to distract yourself with something else so that you're not thinking about this ship 24 hours a day and beating yourself up over it.
Wil Schroter: I got to say something else in. I'm sure at some point we'll have a psychologist on, on the show and she'll tell us something very different than what I'm saying. So please don't take this as any kind of medical advice. But I found that take right now where we are in the business, etcetera. Uh, at the end of the day I can go home at a regular hour, I can shift my focus to spending time with my family and doing whatever it is that I do when I'm not working during that time, I didn't really have that gear during that time when the day was over, my mind started to go back into anxiety mode of what I, what I was reliving from my pTSD of the past and so that I actually then had to take that energy and go back to work again. Is that healthy? Absolutely not. You know, it's less healthy, staying up all night, worrying about my old startup. So yeah, it gave me a bit of an extra gear For probably every bit of two years where I was so dead set, I'm not reliving that past, I'm not having to fall back into what that failure was. That it gave me just one more reason to push as hard as I can into my next start up again. Are there 50 reasons why that's probably unhealthy at so many levels? Yes. But again, for me, it was going to be one or the other. I was either going to put that time into new startup or relive the old startup and the choice is pretty obvious.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah. For me, it was very similar. The, the analog that I would use was that it was almost a it was a competition, right? It was a competition between the old startup and the new startup and the competition was that I would not repeat the same mistakes. I would drive more success with the next one and all those things. It's like, was it Mario Kart where you could race against your own ghost?
Wil Schroter: Yeah, that's what it was
Ryan Rutan: reducing the previous failures as the, as the, as the startup, as the startup ghost. Right? And I'm comparing it to, Right? So rather than than look back at it as complete abject failure. I looked at it as baselines and benchmarks that weren't sufficient. So they needed to be beat, right? Whatever, whatever the metrics of failure were on that one needed to be exceeded with with the next one. Um, and just being a competitive person by nature that helped me a lot. That was how I could kind of positively channel that energy and say like, look, I'm just going to do better rather than thinking of it as having lost everything I sort of think of as having lost a game, not the championship, not the last one, not the entire season, just one right. And knowing that we can continue to do this and do it over and over again. Um, and keep trying and we both said this before, like half the fun is building these things. It is right. So getting the opportunity to build another one. Not really that bad. Once you've been through failure a couple of times, you know, that you're not gonna die from it. Um, you just keep bouncing back and doing it
Wil Schroter: again. You know, there's another part to it, Ryan is, I had something to prove, you know, prior to doing that business for doing afford it. I had some, I had a few successes in a row, so I didn't really have anything to prove. I mean, not that I didn't care about my goals, but it wasn't that, you know, I was, I was fighting for upside for this time for this time around and again, this is what led to startups dot com, I had something to prove. I wanted to prove that I was, I was still good enough to myself as well as to whomever else. I guess I was trying to prove it to and I think that actually brings out the best in me. I would love to think that I can perform just as well with nothing to prove, but it's not true when I have something to prove, uh, I get an extra gear and, and I think that's, you know, that the underdog mentality that certainly I grew up with, that makes me a much more formidable competitor when that happens and looking back, I wish somebody could have told me that he could have said, look, yes, you lost one. Now get out there with something to prove. You know, the way a coach will tell a team after they just suffered from a big loss um, because it works actually, it, it's motivating people,
Ryan Rutan: it's motivational, right? There's a reason coaches continue to do that because it will motivate people to achieve more than they did the last time, right? There's nothing wrong
Wil Schroter: with and then some other interesting things happen. Ryan, another interesting thing that happened was those same cocktail parties that I was going into, I went from the person that, that, that just convulsed when they saw the invitation even come in to attend one of these because I'm thinking, oh God, you know, blah, blah, blah to the person that shows up and won't shut up about my next idea, which by the way was a huge relief to all those people that no longer had to have these uncomfortable conversations and then this really interesting thing happens, it's all of a sudden I recognize because I'm getting out there again and I'm doing my thing, that no one cared that I failed, that everyone was like, man, I'm just glad to see you're out there. Like, I can't wait to have more conversations, like we used to, because we're not just talking about your failure,
Ryan Rutan: of course, we're talking about somebody else at that point. I mean, they happen frequently enough that you don't ever stay the most recent failure for very
Wil Schroter: long, right?
Ryan Rutan: You're no longer the new kid in
Wil Schroter: the failure. Yeah, but I gotta tell you it wouldn't when I'm working on something new, I get so excited about today, I was at lunch with the founder, I was telling you about a new product that we're working at startups dot com. And just that that anxious excited energy that you get when you're talking about shaping the world's a little bit, especially with another founder is awesome and I don't know what it is, that mania mania.
Ryan Rutan: It's it's it's
Wil Schroter: like
Ryan Rutan: we get manic. Yes, that's what
Wil Schroter: we do. One of the media back. That's where we
Ryan Rutan: get yeah, you bring back the mania and you just direct that insane energy and anxiety into into something else.
Wil Schroter: And I, so I think the key here is that we have something else that if we're coming off of, you know, a loss in some way, our first focus point is to find something else to put that energy into. It doesn't have to be our next startup necessarily, it could be a start up, it could be a idea and an idea, it could be something that we we we've feels a good use of our energy right now, I would caution, and I think right now, you know, you and I talked about this in a previous episode, it's also okay to not work on your next startup and usually your next startup, if you haven't had any time to think about it is a shitty idea. I think we talked about it in the, in the context of what happens to founders when they cash out, they go and start something else and they didn't have enough time to think about it, and they start some crappy business. But in this case, I think having something else to wrap your arms around is super powerful sometimes, even if it's not even your business, you're just advising another company and trying to get them going. I've seen a lot of that done successfully,
Ryan Rutan: that's what I did after the, after the last exit was I just spent time then working with other startup founders, rather than jumping right back into something, because I had done that before, I jumped right into something and it ended up being something that, you know, was objectively, it was a good opportunity, but it wasn't something I was interested in, I just got involved with it because I didn't have any, I had free time, right? Free time is a huge, huge danger. Um and so I jumped into something, so after the, after the second I was like, you know what, I'm just going to pump the brakes, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get my startup, adrenaline needs filled by proxy and I'm gonna work with other founders and I'm gonna stay close to the game and enjoy myself, but I'm not going to leap right back in just because I
Wil Schroter: can write
Ryan Rutan: and I think that that doesn't matter whether you're coming off a failure or success. I think that it's, it's still, you know, redirect the energy. But yeah, you're absolutely, you don't have to jump right back in another startup.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, I think another caveat I put is what I didn't do it all and I wish I could have advised myself, I didn't recoup physically. You know, I've been running myself much harder than I realized. And also in a past episode, we talked about some of the physical costs of what it meant to keep running, keep running ourselves, that hard trips to the er and really nasty stuff. Um I didn't appreciate the toll that the entire journey had taken on me mentally and physically, and I think if I were to go back in time and in basically coach myself again, I would say yes, you need to work on something else. But before you do that, before you make that the priority, you need to make a priority on what healing is going to look like. You know, mentally, physically, emotionally, you've got to do something to get yourself reset because there's no version by the time you've gotten to this point where you're doing pretty well, I don't think that's even possible.
Ryan Rutan: Look, this is a huge, this is my kryptonite. This is absolutely my kryptonite because I'm competitive with myself. I refuse to believe that I can't just jump right back in and do something. Case in point On sunday, Played the full 90 minutes of soccer towards the end of the game, popped my hip partially out of socket, right? Got fouled pretty hard hip popped out a little bit. One of my teammates came yanked my yank my leg back into place and uh, we were short players. So I didn't come off the field. I stayed on the field and I just sort of maintained my space wasn't very useful and just stayed in my spot. But that's not where the story ends. That's not that, that was, that was okay, right. It gets dumber because last night I, I decided to go ahead and practice jiu jitsu because it's money and that's what I do. And I told myself no, that's fine, I can, I can do that, I'll be fine. Um and we've got a guy preparing for tournaments, like I wanted to be there for him. I want to be able to support him and make sure he gets what he needs. Um and so I decided to just go ahead and do that, right? I didn't give myself the time to recover today. I'm paying, I'm walking funny
Wil Schroter: the way I see it when we talked to founders and you know, we've kind of been through this process ourselves. The best way to deal with startup failure is to reload, the best way to channel and harness that startup anxiety is to reload. The reloading can come in various forms. They can come in a version where I'm going to reload my health and my mental wellness, it can come with, I'm going to reload my career, I'm going to reload my bank account. Hopefully there's so many versions and we're all probably suffering from all of those. So I don't want to discount any of those that try to weigh more in some capacity than others. However, what I will say and I can't be, I can't emphasize this enough. All that matters when it comes to that point of failure. When it comes to that point of reset is that all of our energy, every bit of emotion goes towards the reload and that is our only focal point on a go forward basis,
Ryan Rutan: that's a wrap for this episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan on behalf of my partner Wil Schroder and all the startups dot com family thanking you for joining us and we hope you'll continue to join us. Be sure to subscribe rate and comment on itunes or wherever you love to listen to startup therapy. You can find all of our episodes at startups dot com slash podcast. If you're looking for more amazing resources to launch or grow your startup, be sure to head to startups dot com and check out startups unlimited. It's everything we have to offer from our online university to our amazing community of experts and founders and even all the tools we've built like biz plan, fungible and launch rock. It's everything a founder needs visit startups dot com slash begin that startups dot com slash B E G I N. You'll thank me later. Mm hmm.