Startup Therapy Podcast

Episode #125

Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to the episode of the startup therapy podcast, this is Ryan Britain from startups dot com, joined as always by Wil Schroder, my partner, friend Ceo and founder of Startups dot com. Well, I was on the phone last night 7:30. I get a call from a friend of mine who recently sold his company. Um now he's in the middle of an earn out still, but he's already thinking about what he's going to do next, like he's already got the next five startup ideas. Um and he's ready to rock, you know, he's like, he just can't wait to go start the next thing. How often does this happen for founders? And and do you think that this is a good and healthy behavior to kind of jump right into the next thing.

Wil Schroter: It happens all the time. And my answer is always stop bia shitty idea, yep, every time man, because like think about this way, we had like all this time to go and develop our first idea, right? And and we had, we had the benefit of working on something else, right? Probably keeping us distracted, making money, whatever we were doing, we could kind of evolve the idea and kind of make it make sense. I think I use this analogy in in another episode, we talked about, it's like when an artist, right? Band, let's say creates their first album and the first album is awesome. And then then there there big hit in the, in the record company, make sure that they get another album out quickly and now they're rushed and they just have to get the album out. So they kind of go with the first ideas they have, the first songs they have and they push that album out and it always sucks, right? And founders are no different, right? We still have to have some sort of creative process and yet time and time again, we always rush. Our second act in our second album usually sucks. That's what we should dig into today. Alright, so before we get into this next topic, I just want to let you know what we talk about here is like 1% of the conversation, you know, really, this conversation is going on all day long online at groups dot startups dot com. Where Ryan and I pretty much talk endlessly with founders about every one of these topics. So if by the end of this discussion, you like the topic and you want to dig into it a little bit more with Ryan and I just had two groups start startups dot com and we'll pick it up from there. Yeah,

Ryan Rutan: absolutely. And it's it's funny, I think, you know, we spend more time with the first one, kind of to some degree even suffering in it, right? We will suffer from the problem that we we want to face. Um and they were facing and then the solution comes from that. Alright, so I think a nice way of summing it up is the first problem finds us right? And then we go and find a solution for it. But that second problem we're post exit or or whatever that is, that led to us having time and opportunity to go see the other one. We go looking for that problem. And I think that's the genesis of the issue, right? We're now forced into a situation forced by ourselves to go find, you know, we don't have a record company telling us we have to do this. Um It's it's all in our head, right? That record company that that you know, the the label owner is is us. And yet we do this to ourselves over and over and over again to the detriment of the fortune that you just earned um to the detriment of the free time that you now have for the first time in how many years? 57, 10 probably. And we decided to squander all of that because we feel this burning need to go do something else. So let's talk a little bit about why maybe we don't need to do that.

Wil Schroter: Well, okay, so at its core, I think that we seek validation and let's assume we just had one of two outcomes, a bad outcome where we folded everything or a good outcome. We made a ton of dough in the bad outcome. We're trying to get on our second thing to prove to everybody that we're not a failure right? That yes, that thing failed. But this next thing is gonna be so much better. And there's a lot of there's a lot of good that comes out of out of like that change in focus, right? But the other side of it, and that's really what we're talking about is when we're successful and maybe we made some money, not always the case, but maybe we made some money and we're rushing as fast as we can to try to go to that next thing. Why not? Because we need the money this time. We want to prove that we're not a one hit wonder.

Ryan Rutan: We want to

Wil Schroter: prove that it's not a fluke that if we did it once.

Ryan Rutan: The irony is this is the best way to prove that you are a one hit wonder right, is to run straight into the follow up failure, right? And uh, we see it all the time, man. But yeah, you're you're absolutely right. You know, it's that it's that need to validate, you know, this wasn't a fluke. Uh, you know, this wasn't, you know, just luck or good fortune or or or some other characteristic that was outside of my control. I did this. This was because of me and I'm gonna prove that by going and doing it again and I'm gonna show all of you people who actually aren't looking or caring half a ship what I do next. But I'm gonna prove to all of you that I can do it again.

Wil Schroter: You know, Ryan, I used the same response to a lot of my friends, probably similar to your friend you were talking to the other night and I say you've already won right? Doesn't mean you beat someone right? Probably not the case you won at life. You've already won anything you do after this doesn't make you win more right? Like you want more of a winner. Like we all came from a place we try to fight our way out of it, we got past it and we're good an example is if tom brady wins another super bowl, who cares, right? I'm sure there's a lot

Ryan Rutan: of fingers for the rings, like he's gonna have to toe toe ring size the next one. Like he's fingers that he doesn't have anywhere to put them.

Wil Schroter: But that's the thing. Like at some point you have already won. Yes, you can win more. But just getting to that threshold is such a victory that getting more of it doesn't really buy you a ton however we create this this this other narrative that we have to pursue, right? We believe that that if we don't do it again, that somehow we've we've broken something or lost something. None of this is true by the way we made all this up. But what that does our lack of understanding of where this validation or false narrative comes from sets the tone and puts the pieces in motion in order for us to rush this next thing because we have to have the next thing. Here's what I don't hear Ryan, I don't hear people say, I just, you know, came off a 10 year run, cashed out, made money, whatever And I'm gonna take 10 years before I do my next thing. I never hear that right?

Ryan Rutan: No, not

Wil Schroter: Yet. And and and and that's the problem. It could probably take 10 years for you to come up with that idea because to your point it takes time, right?

Ryan Rutan: That's the thing. And I think this is the this is the thing that we we forget now. Are there some lessons learned in that first startup that shortcut and short circuits some of the initial kickoff and mistakes and like knowing how to build a team and and some of the the mechanics. Yes. And I actually think that's a big part of the trap. It's like I know how I can get this idea going way faster and they do. But what they didn't do was spend enough time figuring out and validating is this idea worth pursuing, right? I think that's where we run into trouble because we now have a skill set that we didn't have. So we rushed into an idea without giving it the proper time. So let's focus on that for a minute. Let's focus on why it takes time To really have the next good idea and let's be honest about how much time it took us to actually come up with that first idea in the first place because when we go back, I think like the revisionist history version of it was light bulb, moment started startups, spent 10 years sold it. And now the next light bulb came on bullshit. Right? It just never like that. It's typically years in an industry or some unique opportunity comes along. There's there are like this this confluence of factors that led to the formation of that first idea. And then there's typically some period of incubation that can be measured in months at a minimum years. I know people who have literally had an idea that they said, you know, it took me a decade before I actually pulled the trigger on doing this on the first one. We do not have any version of that story for number two because nobody's ever like, yep. And then I waited a decade and I was like, I am sure this is how I want to spend the next 10 years of my life. No, they jump right back into it. So to your point R. Point, good ideas. Take time and there's a reason for that. Well,

Wil Schroter: that time has a filter to it, right? Yes. Like the time being broke has a filter to an important filter, right?

Ryan Rutan: You couldn't

Wil Schroter: do all the things that you couldn't do now that you've got some cash in the bank and that's what led you to the good idea because it forced you to validate a bit now, you can throw money at it and who knows if it's a good idea. Also think of how many times Ryan in our business and startups dot com. We changed, We morphed right to get to where we are today. If we had said our idea is to start helping people doing funding, right? We would have said that's probably not a big enough idea and killed it would have never gotten to where we are because we would have said the idea is not big enough. We would have said that the the timeline is too short, whatever and not giving us ourselves the time we needed to morph into this idea. Same thing happens exactly. Do consulting. And they turned that into a product, right? They didn't want to start a consulting company necessarily. They had to Right, right.

Ryan Rutan: They have to and I

Wil Schroter: talk to people

Ryan Rutan: all the time. It's it's it's it's becoming this constant refrain in my life where I talk about a service proxy like I want to build this product. I'm like, okay, cool, How much money do you have? How much experience do you have delivering um this this solution that you want to people such that you're sure you want to turn into a software? The answer is zero and zero. Okay, cool. Why don't we start by delivering this as a service to consultancy something so that you can make money and learn how to deliver this thing before you replicated into a software? Because software is just a repetition of a process. If it was a shitty process, you've got shitty software and even less money, right? You have $0 before now, you've got negative money. Let's not do that. So yeah, you're right, man. Time is time is a beautiful filter. Um and it forces us to to chip away some of the undue optimism around the idea that it forces us to to reevaluate whether or not this is really where we want to spend our time. Um It allows that feeling and need um that urgency to jump to the next thing to prove to everybody, I can do this again. That feeling fades fairly quickly. If you let it right? But if you jump right into the next thing, guess what? You've now tied yourself to that, right? You're now saddled to the horse and strapped in, you got to keep going because at this point you've decided that you're going to prove to everybody. So how can you undecided that once you've begun and you've told everyone, you're doing this now, that feeling is concrete and you can't escape it, right? Given a little time that fades away and now you can start to make objective decisions about the next thing that you want to do? Um Here's the other thing I always find funny, weren't you really focused on your business for the last 10 years, weren't you really focused on the exit at the end, weren't you completely consumed by this thing? What thought cycles did you possibly have to put into something else? How much thought could have actually gone into this other thing that just shiny ball popped up out of nowhere that you're now suddenly ready to go and chase down right again, back to this filter of time. Um, you know, there's the time you're going to spend going forward to to modify to hone the idea to really give it its it's due course. But there was also that time that should have happened prior to even having the idea that simply couldn't have existed. Like we know what founder life looks like. It's like, well, I was working on that in my free time. Oh, really? And yet you managed to grow and and and exit a company. Um, please unicorn continue. Tell me of this fable. It's just, I think

Wil Schroter: it can't happen. It's silly to assume that the moment after we exit will just happen to be the moment. We have our next big idea. Right? And so, um, just giving ourselves some buffer. I think part of the part of the um, the process here starts with removing artificial, uh, you know, barriers or constraints there go. I have to do it again immediately. Right? Right now. Part of it is, you know, maybe we sold them and we have nothing to do with bored out of our minds, right? Artificial constraints. Yes. We're bored. I

Ryan Rutan: created something for that. It's called hobbies.

Wil Schroter: But but what I'm saying is, yes, we're bored. But at the same time, it doesn't necessarily mean that this is the best time in the perfect idea is going to land in our in our laps right now. What we have to be able to say is first step take off all these bullshit narratives, right? I have to do it again to prove something I have to do. I have to be in an office right away because I was in an office yesterday. All that stuff just just forces a bad outcome. First thing, we do take that off the table. We say, the idea will take as long as it takes. And I mean, here's the important part and I may never find another good idea, right? I mean, that's the thing where, like you you heretic. Yeah, I'll never find a good idea. I

Ryan Rutan: just felt the collective listeners anxiety pulse up to like rage levels. Like what did he just say?

Wil Schroter: And and so, but here's why we're not the same person. We were when we started the first company at so many levels, right? We talked about this a moment ago, we were saying, look, we're not as curious. Were not as hungry. We're not as desperate. You know, we're not all of these things. Some are good, some are bad, but we're not the same person, the person who created a success. It's gone, right? We're this new person and we have to work under their parameters, you know what I mean? You know, by the way, I just want to mention if what we're talking about today sounds like the kind of discussion you wish you were having more often, you actually can, you know, we're online all day everyday working through exactly these types of topics with founders, just like you. So any question you would have or maybe some problem you just want to work through. We're here and we love this stuff and we're easy to find, you know, head over to groups dot startups dot com and let's just start talking.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, yeah, that was the thing I touched on was we were going through through, you know, the good ideas take time.

Wil Schroter: And

Ryan Rutan: it was this idea that one of the things that causes us to jump in and ignore. What is that important? Interstitial period of time where we give ourselves that breathing room is the fact that we are a different person with a different skill set who can accelerate some of that early stage stuff, right? Like we now know how to incorporate. You only need to learn that once and then it's kind of done, right? Um, we now have a much bigger network, right? So we've got plenty of people and, and, and you know, I'm going to try to find a way to say this nicely. Um, but they're going to be plenty of people around you who are excited about your success and when you tell them you're ready to go on and do the next thing, they're going to want to be part of that next success without factoring in that it may not be a success, right? They want to ride along and so they will prop you up. They will blow smoke, right? They will, you know, they'll, they'll make you feel great about the idea. Um, out of again, this, this undue optimism around the fact that you've done this once, of course you'll do it again. They want to be part of that. So I see this happen all the time where all of a sudden, I don't want to call them sick offense, but like these, these people will start to like surround the founder, right? And, and like, you know, cheer, cheer, carry carry them into the next battle right on the, on the palanquin. And they're just like, you know, roaring about their victories and, and can't wait for the next one. Um, and that can propel founders into into really bad decisions. Again, that was not a problem the first time, right? You reverse that situation where you're the first time founder, everybody around you is literally doing the opposite. You're like, you're gonna what you're gonna quit your job and you're gonna start this tech thing that does what All right, You're going to become the plumbing for telephones and it's called Twilio. That sounds idiotic, right? Like why would you do that? So I think that, you know, by virtue of the skills we have the network, we have the other resources we have in terms of now free time, um, not necessarily in a good, in a good way, um, because of how we spend it and uh, free cash, all this other stuff, Right? The likelihood of investment goes up, right? So we know it's going to be easier to go and raise more money. So there's all these things because of this new person that we are that give us the ability to accelerate into disaster.

Wil Schroter: Right? And our problem is we just came off something big what we forget. I think this is such an important point of distinction is all the best ideas. Facebook, google apple, whatever. It started off as small and dumb

Ryan Rutan: became

Wil Schroter: what they became, right? And so, but we're not thinking like that. We're not thinking like how can I start something small in the garage, right? Because we've got success, We've got money. It has to be big out of the gates and basically what we do as we lose the very process that creates great companies, we overlook it because we want to fast forward it and what we don't realize is great art takes time and this is our, this is something that requires a process. It requires a lot of thought and it often requires starting something really small, fairly dumb and really focused with no option to go back. Right. We have none of those things. Now we have a ton of dough, we have tons of optionality, whether it works or not, we've convinced that we have to tell everybody that it's a huge idea. So it can't be small ward. Um Right, right. And we've literally taken out all the factors that make great companies, great companies, We're not the same person anymore. We have to look at it and say, I can't create what I created before because I'm not thinking like the person I was before that made me great.

Ryan Rutan: You're absolutely right. Well, I think this is a matter of like a reset of expectations, right? Like we can't expect to kind of begin at the level that we just ended, right. This isn't the role playing game where you, you continue from being a level 10 wizard, like you're back to ground zero again, you start over what's really interesting to me and I've seen this happen more than once. We're actually dis incentivized as founders for doing this or were chastised for doing it or were denigrated for doing it. I've seen it where somebody who's exited, sitting at a round table and they present something that's a very simple, small quote unquote dumb idea, right? It's this, it's this little thing and everybody else at the table, like who was waiting to hear what their next big idea was going to be is all kind of like, oh, oh, well, okay, right. And there's this like shit response to it, and that's exactly the opposite of what it should be because to your point, this is exactly what that founder needed to do. They needed to go back to square one and say, where did I begin this thing? Of course, there will be mistakes that we don't have to make twice. There will be things that we can do better and faster the second time. Yes, but we still need to start at that very nascent point where it's just an idea. It's not a big idea. It's not a it's not a great idea. It's just an idea and we have to be willing to nurture and cultivate that to the point where it can become something that you can become a big idea. But the really funny irony is that like when we do that and we talked to other founders about it, the typical response is, is a really poor one, right? It's like, oh, you know, I was kind of expecting something more from him, but you know, he wants to do this, this goofy little thing. Yeah, Well, the likelihood that it stays a goofy little thing is small. Um, it's a lot smaller because he's starting it as a goofy little thing where she's starting with something very small and manageable that can grow from there. I had another conversation with somebody hadn't talked to in a couple of years, a connection of mine from, from ST Pete um has a successful business, has been running it for 5 to 7 years now. Um, but it's the type of business that now can be kind of put under management and has been, and she has slowly started to remove herself from this business. They had a lovely boom during Covid and she's been able to extract herself from that a little bit and she has gone on to the next idea and she, she called me to talk about this. Um, and it was something very small and very simple. Right? And, and, and you know, not big and sexy and not something incredible, but there is room for scale there. But what she's talking about building to begin with is really tiny. And, and, and luckily she called me and I applaud her for that. I said, you know what, I'm really glad to hear that you're talking about doing this in like a single zip code to start with. Right? Yes, it could be nationals someday, That's fantastic. But if it doesn't work here, that the idea that if you just start bigger, that it's somehow going to be better is super, super flawed. Right? Again. There's also a chance that it just won't work. You brought this up at the beginning. Lots of one hit wonders out there, right? And we use that as as as as a derogative in in in music right? It's it's bad to be a one hit wonder. Um I'd argue that having one hit in anything, whether that's a sport, um business or music still pretty awesome because when you compare it to the rest of the people who are no hits, um still pretty awesome, right? But you made a point early on, which is that a lot of times you know this this second effort regardless of how hard we try. Um and regardless of how well we approach it, it just doesn't work right, right? There's a limited number of hits to be had and that's okay too.

Wil Schroter: Well I agree with that. I got to remember to two instances um of founders that had you know big outcomes that ended up coming back with just dumb silly ideas. And I don't mean that in a derogatory manner. I mean in a good way in this case I'm actually high fiving them. Uh if you if you do research uh Andrew Mason who was the head of Groupon, which as you know was one of the fastest growing companies of all time after we were funded I. P. O. And he had left etcetera. He started his next idea was he started a company where it was audio tours on your phone for different cities where we just tell you about the history of the city as you walked around and he said, this is just a dumb idea. Just something I feel like working on. Like what I loved about it is he disarmed it. He didn't try to say this is the next group on, he's like, no, this is what I want to work on. And frankly I get to work on whatever I want to and this is it. And I love that the next one was around that time a guy named Aaron Patzer, who was the founder of Mint dot com, which had a great exit into it. I got the chance to sit down across from him and we were talking about his next deal and he was starting something called fountain, which was actually kind of similar to what we were doing at clarity. It was helping you connect with experts like a plumber or something like that for different things. That it was a great idea, right? And I was like, hey, you know, we kind of owned something that space. I can tell you how big of an idea it is, right? You know, you're not gonna like the answer, but um, but it's a great idea. And I remember saying to him, I was like, but it's your idea, who cares how big it is, right? It's what you want to work on. And I felt in both cases that the founders just needed to validate themselves that I don't need to prove shipped to anybody already did it. That's why you read about me in the paper, right? I've already taken care of that part. Now I'm gonna work on what I want to work on. The reason I bring that up because I think that for themselves and the outside world, the founder needs to disarm everybody, right, reset expectations right? To give themselves lots and lots and lots and lots of reps on whatever this idea is. So that maybe becomes one day what you wanted to become if we go out there and we're like, yes, this is my next big act, right? We basically disrupted all the laws of startup physics, right? Because it just doesn't quite work that way. Now some people have have, you know, muscled through it and made it work. But generally speaking, your second act takes a lot of time. And so what I love is when founders get in front of it and they, and they say, look, I'm setting expectations. Now this is probably a dumb idea, right? And that's okay. And I'm gonna work on it for as long as I need to until it becomes something more what I do, like is when founders finish an exit or, or a shutdown for that matter and they do go work on something, right? They just don't have the pressure that this has to be it, right? Like I just, I just wrap this thing, whatever it was good or bad. Now the next thing has to be the biggest thing, here's why here's why most of us good or bad only have one good idea our entire lives, right? I think Mark Cuban said it best. You only need to have two, you only have to be right once, right? And what he was saying was like, he did have a good idea back in 1999. I don't know if it was a good idea, got him paid. Um, but the point is we keep thinking that like, as founders were just fountains of ideas, right? And we keep coming up with good ones, not true. And I think David Hannah Meyer Hanson said it from base camp, he's like, this is probably our best idea. I probably don't have a better idea. I'm just like throwing it up, but working it for 20 years, I don't know that I'll ever do something better than this and it was just honest and I really liked that and I think that, yeah,

Ryan Rutan: it's, it's refreshing, it's reassuring. Um, and unfortunately it's far too uncommon

Wil Schroter: of, of, of,

Ryan Rutan: of the mindset, right? That I think that it's, it really does represent a tiny tiny fraction of founders. Um, and, and hopefully this, you know, hopefully what we're saying today helps to change that a little bit and we're giving people permission to feel okay about, you know, only having that one success or in taking some time post failure to, but it's not really we're talking about today, but again, like if that is where you're at, if you failed and you feel that you need to go prove yourself, You're like, well I took swing one, but I get three strikes, right? So I'm gonna swing right now, probably not the right time, right? So you know, you're, you're now probably tired from the last one. You're, you're emotionally worn down. Um, the support around you has, if there was any to begin with, um, has probably waned significantly. Um, and if there was a lot of pushback against your first idea, there's going to be even more against your second. Like why are you doing this to yourself again?

Wil Schroter: Right. Well, here's, here's another way to look at it. I've started nine companies right at the time when I started each one, I thought they were my best idea. That's why I started them. Right? Right. Right. And so, but now I can look back and I can say, wow, those were a lot of shitty ideas. I started them. There's no way I could have known at the time not to start them because they only become surety ideas after you start them and fail, right or they don't become what you want or they waste a bunch of time. There's a lot of, you know, flavors of failure. But, but what's interesting about that is for the longest time for like probably 20 years running. I was 100% convinced that we just stamped out the same quality of ideas, right? Like we're founders, that's what we do and good ideas are just commodities. All it matters is I pick one and I go run with it. Yeah, I'd later learn that I don't have that many good ideas actually. I have ideas. They're generally pretty shitty and I'm kind of looking for the good idea. Right? It's the same reason bands who are incredibly talented have lots of songs, but they don't have any good ones, right? It's not like they're only able to record the good ones they recorded, they just kind of sucked,

Ryan Rutan: right? We all suffer through, we all suffer through tracks 345 to get to six and then we skip seven and eight and then there's nine, right? It always starts good, then there's that there's enough in the middle to keep you moving and then there's the last one at the end. Yeah. It's,

Wil Schroter: if they're so talented, why don't they only come out with its,

Ryan Rutan: you know, it's, it's a matter of repetition and a little bit of luck.

Wil Schroter: Yeah. Right. It's because for all of us, we have a lot of, you know, we think that this, you know, my Vesuvius of good ideas and we're constantly erupting with good ideas and what we have to be kind of humble about certainly what I've learned is that we have maybe one good idea, maybe, probably not. Maybe one good idea. Some people, if they are incredibly fortunate have to, You don't have 10. Right? So this idea that I've just all this stuff I'm gonna work on is gonna work out. That's just not the way this ship works. And so I think in in a bit of like humble pie for ourselves, like we need to step back in this process and we need to say I just exited statistically the probability That I'm going to have another good idea. As good as that one is freakishly low. It might even be zero. Statistically it's probably right. And so let me at least kind of go through this process with, with the, the reminder that this is probably going to be a shitty idea why the statistics are what they are and kind of step back and give it time. You know what I mean?

Ryan Rutan: Yeah. And I don't think that there's anything wrong with that, right? I think that again, the if you do for some reason you're driven to go on and do something else, give yourself the time to understand that DR really unpack it and figure out why am I doing this right. Go through those things that we talked about that are false motivators, which is you feel like you need to do it to validate yourself other people around. You are telling you, Gosh, you were so good at that the first time, this is what you're meant to do. You've got to go do another one, right? People are approaching you to be co founders. They're approaching you to be advisors. They're approaching to be whatever. They're trying to wrap you into what they're doing because they want a piece of your momentum and you're next good idea. Should you ever have one? Give yourself the appropriate amount of time to let that simmer down to let things level out and to recognize and get a little time to get to know the new person that you are right? Because in most cases, right? And know it's certainly been true for me. You and I have had conversations about this. So so many things have changed in the 10 years since we started this company, we had families, we've we've we've we've changed. Geography is multiple times both of us. So many things have changed and who we are as people have changed. And one of the things that hasn't changed is the amount of time we've had to get to know ourselves. And so I think that there's something really powerful that can happen post exit, good or bad, where you take a little time for introspection and get to know who this new person is and get to understand like what would be a good idea for them, Right? Because the good idea for 20 year old Ryan is probably not the same quality idea. And I don't mean that in terms of a higher quality and I don't think that I'm necessarily capable of having higher quality ideas now. Um, Brain Science would probably tell me the opposite, I was probably more capable of having good ideas when I was younger. However, the, the quality of the idea, the, the thing that would motivate me to do something new now would have a different set of qualities than what it had for 20 year old me, I'm a very different person now, you know, and, and I think that's something that we don't give enough credence to and that we don't spend enough time to get to know ourselves to know what is this new version of me going to really enjoy doing? What is this new version of me going to be really capable of doing? What is this new version of me going to have some small chance

Wil Schroter: at going

Ryan Rutan: forth and kicking as while trying.

Wil Schroter: Alright, so that was fun, but let's actually keep this conversation going. You've heard what we think about this, but you know, Ryan and I would really like to hear what you think and we're online, like all day long, pretty much talking about every startup topic you could think of from fundraising, the customer acquisition to just really how to get all of this crazy startup stuff out of your head. And there's tons of other founders just like you, they're weighing in on these topics, so you'll get a chance to just hang out and meet. Some really smart founders

Ryan Rutan: were also super,

Wil Schroter: super easy to find. You head over to groups dot startups dot com and let Ryan and I hear what's on your mind, Let's get to know each other a little bit and let's just start

Ryan Rutan: having more of

Wil Schroter: these conversations.

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