Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan joined as ever by my friend and partner, the Ceo and founder of startups dot com Wil schroder. Well, we both hear this question quite a bit like what happens if I sell too early. However, you just brought this up that you were in a founder group a couple days ago where, where this came up um, and then there was a really good discussion around it. So I thought for purposes this why not just use that to illustrate the concept today.
Wil Schroter: Yeah, you know, it was interesting because uh, you know, a lot of the founder groups vary greatly in who's the composition, the stage and everything else like that. But this question was actually centered around some folks in this particular group who had all had massive excess, right, you know, um, uh 9, 10 figure exits. And the question was more around, you know, when you have an exit that big, um, you know, there's, there's almost clearly money left on the table because the company was so successful leading into that, that, you know, it's obviously if you're selling too early, that's, that's an issue. Here's what's interesting going around the room, not a single person in the room Had any issue with having sold too early. Now they all knew that they had left money on the table, right? When, when my first company sold, we're doing $650 million dollars in buildings. Uh, and now it does like six billion right now, by the way, in both cases probably has nothing to do with me either how it got there or where it is today. Um, but, but that's here nor there. My point is Do I look back 20 years ago and say, Oh man, I wish I had never. Right. And now here's the interesting thing folks that are using much, much, much smaller numbers, a lot less zeros behind the number if you will are having the same concern. And, and so, so here's, here's what's interesting people assume that because those outcomes were so big and you made so much money that you're, you're, you're not concerned about, you know, whether you could have made a little bit more, not true, no matter what the outcome is, no matter how big this number is, everyone has this concern, everyone feels like, oh man, there's so much lost opportunity, there's so much lost revenue, there's so much lost, X, Y, Z. And I think what we can talk about today is what really is lost. And on the other side of it is what's kind of to be gained by not having this silly, silly kind of fomo feeling about the whole process. Before we get into this next topic, I just want to let you know what we talk about here is like 1% of the conversation, you know, really, this conversation is going on all day long online at groups dot startups dot com. Well Ryan and I pretty much talk endlessly with founders about every one of these topics. So if by the end of this discussion, you like the topic and you want to dig into it a little bit more with Ryan and I just had two groups dot startups dot com and we'll pick it up from there. Yeah,
Ryan Rutan: But I mean, at the end of the day, we we've talked about this before In terms of what makes for a meaningful except how much money is life changing? And it's a lot less than everybody thinks. So, I think anybody who's been through this before, who's sitting back and looking at somebody who's trying to push another five or 10% out of a deal. Um, we're kind of going, do you really need that extra money, right? Or could you just take the deal and move on right and right. And I think that it's it's not the practical side of things, right? It's not the spreadsheet that's going to tell you ah ha we need to take another 15 million off the table. That's what's fair, that's what we're owed. That's that's what's that's what's just right now. Um, it's all of these emotions that, you know, and and it's it's built on foundations and layers upon layers upon layers and the ghosts of emotions, past of all this that we put into this business to get to this point where it sells, right. And I think there's this sense that emotionally, we want to recoup all of that and you're like all of those days of suffering, all of those challenges, all those late nights. And so it's really the emotional side of things where, where we see people get caught up. I remember in my own case With the first exit and it was, it was a small exit was mid-6 figures and that my feelings were, could I push this more, my leaving money on the table? And most of the thinking was around that I could then distribute out to the team, right? They were all going to get a check, but I was looking at that going, well, it's a meaningful check and it's gonna pay off student loans, maybe give them all a down payment for a house, something along those lines. But like if we double that if we triple that and they started to just again, we keep coming back to this, these one sided conversations, I wasn't talking to any of them and saying, Hey, do you want to risk the certainty of this exit that's being offered to us to maybe grow to maybe hold on longer to maybe get a bigger offer in the future in order to maybe take more money off the table and will that be meaningful enough to, to make it worth it? But it had nothing to do with the truly practical. It was just all of these feelings. Um, and comparing it to a couple of the people I knew who had, who had sold agencies around the same time and thinking if I'm going to be successful with this, it needs to look something like what there's looked like. Hey, in my case, I also had the specter looming of what this company was going to do with my business after they bought it. And I knew there was a ton of instant upside for them. They were essentially using me as a trojan horse to get into a couple of really large clients where they had a product suite that was 10 X what I had and they would immediately be able to start to roll out those solutions to these companies. Um, and 10 X the revenue. Right? So I'm sitting there looking going, okay, here's what we're doing now. They're gonna be doing 10 X. That should I be jealous? Should I be, was I gonna go build all those solutions? Was I gonna do all that was gonna put in the work? No. Oh, so it made sense. Took the deal. And yeah, there were some times where I looked back and I was like, man, I couldn't hold on to that a little longer. I could have pushed a little harder. I could have done more of what they did, but that's that lovely revisionist history that we like to beat ourselves up with his founders. That takes you to absolutely nowhere.
Wil Schroter: Well, you know, I also don't think it has to be all or nothing. I mean, what I talked to founders about is actually talking to a founder yesterday about this. She had this great acquisition offer. Uh, and she was worried obviously about selling too early and I said, okay, leave some on the table, you know, leave a little lottery ticket behind. And I'm gonna let me build on this one a little bit because I think this is interesting. I actually coach a lot of people on how to buy companies. And I talk about this same thing in reverse. So I want to talk about this topic in a little bit more detail than we normally would because I think it's a key component for the buyer and the seller
Ryan Rutan: as much time as you need buddy, go
Wil Schroter: for it. It's our show. Uh, the problem with putting a deal together for both the buyer in the cellar is that the buyer is concerned that they overpaid. The seller is concerned that they, that they sold for too little. The way that you take that off the table to some degree is you offer a kicker or, or a residual incentive for both parties so that You don't buy the whole company. So you leave maybe 10% behind. The number can vary, You leave 10% behind. So that if this thing goes on to become the next facebook google, what have you, that there is some exponential upside. Something that's far far greater than what you could have possibly negotiated right now, you know, it's also interesting that's great for the buyer and I encourage them to do that every time because for the buyer, that's a way to bring down the total price. Because often when you're the buyer, what you're negotiating against isn't present value, it's this bullshit made up future value, right? That no one can quite quantify. But what you're really paying a premium for is what the seller thinks maybe it could be worth, but I couldn't possibly quantify, take it off the table. Here's your lottery tickets so that if you still feel like this fomo thing exists, here's a way to, to get that out. We'll
Ryan Rutan: pay you in for future value in future value, right? Like makes a ton of sense, doesn't it?
Wil Schroter: And you can also, you know, if you want this is, I'm going to the buyer side for a second, you can make that expired, just like, you know, options expire, you can say that you get 10% for the first year, 8% for the second year, 6%, you know, something like that, where it, you know, you're not paying a huge premium up front. Uh, but it also allows you as you start to take better control of the business and the seller has less, uh, you know, control or input as to how it ever had that exit. Um they get a little bit less over time. The point is it's it doesn't have to be all or nothing and I think that's probably the top thing that impedes the thinking that if I don't get it, get mine now and get as much as I can that I'm done. And I think that's a that's a that's a broken challenge.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, it's the all the all or nothing, right. I have to do every, I have to give all of it up and and take whatever I can to the table now or I have to decide to hold onto it forever. Right? I mean, we see this earn outs are really, really common um in my situation, I had to turn out and at the end of the earn out, they actually offered to allow me to extend the earn out period and earn back some of the equity About 5% for putting in a year. Yeah. And I, I opted not to take it, but they were really happy with the way I was kind of owner operating the piece that they left me in charge of. And so there was equity back on the table. I decided not to do it at that point because it wasn't clear what would happen at the end of that period for me. Um and again, it was, I was kind of re buying a lottery ticket that I had already sold. Um and so at that point, it was like, I was also 22, so I was, you know, not, not, not the most mature decision maker, uh, that I know at this point, but I was ready to go on and do other things. So I was a bit checked out at that point and decided, yeah, let's just let, let's let it go. Let's get through the urine out and be done. Um, was also back to having a boss, which is not my favorite thing. Right? So I decided to call it what it
Wil Schroter: was. Yeah, Well look, here's the thing, I think, uh, again, this, this, let's hold some back, create a lottery ticket. It doesn't work for every transaction. Often big companies, you know, like say a publicly traded company or you're like, like we're not interested. But here's the thing, A lot of people don't think about this. There are countless entrepreneurs That made far more on the stock component, which was essentially the lottery ticket on the stock component of who acquired them than they ever did on the actual cash transaction, which is to say anybody that sold to Amazon 1990. You can probably explain this to you quite well, right? Or google in the early days etcetera that, that their, their cash consideration wound up being the least important thing. Now I'd like to contrast that to say, but it's also the most important thing and what I mean by that is whatever cash you have to negotiate to think whatever cash you're taking off the table now May likely and presumably be the last cache you ever take. Right? So if if you were to say I'm selling the big co and it really depends on who the company is, but I'm selling a big co and they have a huge vision for this thing. So I'm willing to leave 50% on the table. Okay. Okay. So long as the other 50% is meaningful enough And you can say, look, if I never get more than this 50%,, I'm good. Right. I mean I kind of wish it was more, but but I'm good with this 50 then it's a good deal. I will say this however time and time and time again, That is the last 50% you are ever going to see. I was just like I was talking another founder, Uh, a week ago and and he had, he had done kind of an exit deal and he got 20 on the deal up front And uh, he had another 80% on the back end. We'll ship happens. And and we talked about at the time I said, Look, that's a pretty lopsided thing. But it's probably the best you can do right now makes sense. But just be warned just because someone says they're going to pay it to you doesn't automatically mean you're going to get paid. Hence
Ryan Rutan: underwriters exist right? Like not everybody, you
Wil Schroter: know, by the way, I just want to mention if what we're talking about today sounds like the kind of discussion you wish you were having more often, you actually can, you know, we're online all day everyday working through exactly these types of topics with founders just like you so any question you would have or maybe some problem you just want to work through. We're here and we love this stuff and we're easy to find, you know, head over to groups dot startups dot com and let's just start talking when negotiating these deals, it was kind of sell too early That the balance here is two things, what's the least amount of guaranteed cash that I needed And look if if I can't hit that threshold, you know, for whatever that least amount is, we should probably talk about kind of what least amount should presumably be. Um, if I can't hit that threshold then yeah, it's probably a shitty deal. On the other hand, if I'm not selling because I've got this fomo about the future, there are mechanisms to take care of that, right? And if I'm not putting them on the table or more specifically, if at the deal table, you know, talking to the, the acquire, I'm not very clear about what I'm trying to accomplish or what I'm concerned about, then that's on me. You know, Ryan, we've got a lot of companies, I've never been in a situation where the seller had this poker face and that worked out really well. Right. Our first thing is tell me what you're trying to get done here, we didn't buy any
Ryan Rutan: of those companies.
Wil Schroter: Right, Right. And so in my mind, the smartest thing that that the seller can do is at least be clear about their objectives. You know, maybe we'll play a little bit of poker on price, but, but here's how I would ideally like if we were selling startups dot com, right? Um I would go to Jeff Bezos and I'd say, look, Jeff, here's, here's exactly you know what's important to me. Um we need this amount of cash up front in order to take care of the team and you know, anybody else that's involved and the rest of it we think is upside because we think the company is going to be worth, you know, this much, let's negotiate what those numbers are. But those are the two things I'm trying to accomplish, you know what I mean, yep. Yeah, when everybody
Ryan Rutan: understands what the levers that actually will move the deal forward or not are it's so much easier to be able to move the deal forward because then you can start to get creative and you can think about how else can we create those situations outside of just a pure cash transaction and then it gets you out of that binary mindset of will I pay this price or not. Right? Because the minute you get into that, then you're back to this very objective standpoint. And especially if you're trying to build in things like future value, which are absolutely not objective, It falls apart really quick. There's just no way to get to those numbers and be able to simply just agree like, yeah, this is the market price for this. Good luck. You're selling something that doesn't otherwise exist
Wil Schroter: 100% deal, especially when you're selling your company. The deal isn't about how much you're getting paid, it's about how you're getting paid or in some cases, if you're getting paid, if you're getting paid. Yeah, Yeah. You know that if I do these deals that I'm definitely getting paid not true. And people like, well, hold on, wait, I might not get paid. Here's how you might not get paid. You might do a great deal and it winds up being great for everyone, but you one way is you don't guarantee your outcome right. In other words, you say, hey, we're taking five million in for selling this thing, a smaller acquisition and you're like, this is wonderful uh until you realize that you raised a million and a half, you've got a preference on that, you know, maybe a two x preference and all of a sudden that five million goes down to two million, but that's not the end of it, You then have some clauses in there that say, we're only gonna get to five million, if the team hits, you know, this milestone. You know, if we grow the company this much and then you realize, well, hold on a sec, the upfront money is going to go to the investors first anyway, so we don't hit our milestones on the back end, the investors get paid and we actually get nothing. How did that happen? Right happens all the time. That's the problem selling a company and getting paid aren't the same things as countless founders who have gone through this will tell you which goes back to the, what if I sold too early? And it's like, well, what if you sold in a structure right now and didn't get paid? Yeah,
Ryan Rutan: I mean, absolutely. If you're in a situation where you end up taking no money off the table, not a great deal. Um, and that could have been a factor of being too early. Could have been a factor of just being a bad deal. Whatever. Let's, let's shift gears from it. Let's talk about what happens when, when you are actually able to take that money off the table. Um, it's the real money that matters, right? This is the part where where it actually starts to have the potential to change life. But well, we've talked about this, we did a whole episode on this, but we've done a couple of episodes that touch on this, let's let's rehash that a little bit here. The amount of money that most people think needs to come off the table and and land in the founder account to change your life is actually far less than most people anticipate right and they start to measure what that success and like if I put this much in my bank account it will be a success because that's how much so and so putting their bank or that's how much I think I need. Um but you know we both talked about even just getting down to like that spreadsheet level where you plug in here is the stuff I oh here are the things that I need to go by here. My my planned future expenses. Those numbers come out to a whole lot less than like selling to you know Facebook for $27 billion dollars right? You don't need to do that to change your life. So let's unpack what that really looks like in your mind. Where is that meaningful line.
Wil Schroter: Well okay so there's two ends of the spectrum here. one end of the spectrum is how much is this asset worth? What is the maximum amount of value that I can get for this access asset? And and that's important. The other side of it though, that's more important is how much do I need in any transaction in order to solve all the problems I'm trying to solve and this is where we start to get into the danger zone Because people conflate those. They say the maximum amount of money that this thing is worth is tantamount to how much I actually need often not true. And by the way, this can break the deal. Either way they can say, Hey, the assets only worth $2 million dollars and based on how it has to do payouts, it actually won't solve the problems I'm trying to solve. So it doesn't matter if that's the max I can get out of it, it doesn't move the meter for me, Right, Right. But the move the meter for me part is what's interesting at the top of the episode, we talked about when uh in one of the founder groups that they had asked around the room and said, hey, do you guys regret selling? Uh and again, these are all massive outcomes. What was interesting about all of them is that they basically said once you got past, by the way, a very small amount of money, like hundreds of thousands of dollars or low millions of dollars, there was nothing beyond that threshold that you needed money for, like, and again, you know, we've we've dug into this, but I'm okay with rehashing it, that was worth killing a deal over. Right, Right. So so play this out. Most people run this math and I think this is the silliest math, they say, how much do I need to never have to work again? And I think these are the most ambitious people in the world running this math. So I don't think they're lazy when they say that.
Ryan Rutan: No, that's why it's so ironic that they're saying it right. It's like, what would you do with yourself if you weren't running and you weren't working, what are you going to do?
Wil Schroter: Right. Right. But that's not what they're saying. I think that's what they're saying, but but what they really mean is I don't want to have to work, I want to work, but I don't want to have to worry about whether the paycheck comes in for the rest of my life. I want security, right? Don't want
Ryan Rutan: The pressure of you want negative financial pressure is essentially what they're talking about eliminating which takes a lot less money than 27 billion
Wil Schroter: dollars. Here's where it breaks every time. Well, in a few places, One place that it breaks every time is they say here's a number that at, you know, 10% or 5% or whatever I'm using as my investment thesis on that, on that principle is going to give me enough cash to live for the rest of my life. Great, amazing. To be honest. There aren't that many businesses that are in a position to sell that have that level of outcome that can probably do that math, right? Conversely, If you put $500,000 in the bank, chances are again, even if you know, no matter how you run it. Yes, you can't live off that money forever. In most cases, right? However, that amount of money will likely prevent you from ever having a major problem in your life Ever again. We've talked about this before. Ryan right? Like where there are very few problems you can't solve for $500,000 or far less. Right? I think, I think the threshold we used is what $100,000.
Ryan Rutan: We talked about $100,000 being like a really, really good cushion. And then we've also talked about 250,000 being a really meaningful life changing. But that wasn't just provide cushion. That was to eliminate a lot of debt. That was to, you know, own most or all of your home payoff cars. Yes. So it takes far far less than than most people are thinking is they're aiming for these, you know, 10 50 $7500 million cash events that land in their account. Um, great if it happens, but also great if it doesn't and you still end up with something in your account that's awesome. Like don't overlook that it's meaningful having 100,000 having 200,000 having 500,000, your account will definitely change what you feel from a five national financial pressure standpoint. It's life changing without hold,
Wil Schroter: I can think of three folks on top of my head right now that are in our founder groups right now that have sold in the last 60 days for millions of dollars upwards of maybe $100 million. You know, if, if my memory serves me, um, all of them, all of them, no matter where they were on that spectrum all did mostly the same shit, right? They paid off some debt, they took a vacation, they bought a house. It's not what people think it is, right? It's not like where people are like, oh my God, like one of them that I can think of actually got a private jet membership, right? And that was the most expensive thing that they did, right? It was just that everything else just said exactly the same. They were sitting at home watching netflix,
Ryan Rutan: they're just gonna fly places much,
Wil Schroter: much better than they did before, right? But, but here's, here's what people think it is. People think once I get that bank of cash, I'm buying a $20 million house in Bel air and I'm buying a yacht and I'm, you know, flying pride and all this stuff You can, that does happen. But what you don't see for most folks, most founders, you don't see how this money actually gets spent. It's way less crazy than you think it is. And those expenses aren't nearly what you think they are when you see somebody buying a $20 million $20 million, right? They're putting some money down and they're making payments like everybody else because you wouldn't want to tie that much money up in a mortgage. My point is, most people when they're creating these silly numbers that they have to sell by have never quantified them to begin with. So if you've got a business Ryan and someone's coming to you and saying, Hey, I'm gonna give you $3 million Bullshit, it's worth 30, I'm gonna hold out for that. Okay, have you done the math on $3 million? Because if you haven't and you haven't actually done it like a rational person to understand how life changing that money will be. And here's the thing, just because you say it's worth 30 doesn't mean 30s coming. You're not, it's not like you're just passing that by and 30s on its way. Right. What you're saying is I'm gonna pass up three And chances are I'll never see 30. So really, I'm just passing up three, right? Yeah,
Ryan Rutan: you're saying no to three and you're saying, I hope to something that may never exist
Wil Schroter: if you have three on the table, you need to be looking at three is maybe the last time you'll ever see the three. I mean Ryan, how many times have we been in that position? We're talking about? This isn't selling a house, right, Right? Yeah.
Ryan Rutan: There's there's not necessarily a market for these, right? It's not like we just put a for sale sign up on it and somebody will buy it, right? That's just not how this works. The purchase of a business, the acquisition of businesses. So, so so specific, right? There has to be this strong contextual strategic alignment. The timing has to be right. The pricing has to be right. Uh you know that the products have to align. Well there's so many little things that lead to an acquisition. Um They may only those those conditions may only exist once if ever in the life of a business. And so this is probably one of the most important things we're gonna say today. It may be the only offer you ever get right. You cannot assume that just because somebody came along early or somebody came along ever. That somehow there's a line of buyers that just they only knew that then they would want to buy your business right now. Maybe that's true, but like how is everybody going to find out about it? Um Yeah, so it's it's one of those things where you know, we want to be careful here about saying, you know, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Yes, I mean, it still does have to be a good deal. Go back to that, right? Go back to but but really go back to your just your your most recent point, be really clear on what a good deal actually means. Alright. You know, one of the things we talked about another episode is all of these things that people think they want to do with their money post exit, Most of which they've never done before, but they're like, I want to buy a $20 million air. Okay, what's your what's your current house look like? It's a 1200 square foot shared apartment in San Francisco. All right. Do you have any idea what it's like to live in a 20,000 square foot house in Bel Air? Do you, have you ever been to Bel Air? Do you like Bel Air is a fun place to hang out of a bunch of your friends there? Um No, well then how the hell do you know you even want that? And so we talked about this in the previous episode validate some of these things, make sure that not only are you validating whether it's a good deal validate whether you actually want any of these things that your imaginary lee spending imaginary money on, because you may find that you need a lot less and can make that $2 million deal work. That $3 million deal work. Um a $500,000 deal work. It all depends. It's all relative right? And you know, if if you're saying, well, I need twice as big a yacht as I have now and you know, you love yachts and that's really what you want to do. Okay, fine do that. But if you're just saying, I want a yacht. I've never even been on one. Maybe start with questioning some of these desires, right? Like figure out that you actually want to need these things and you'll appreciate them because again, these things come along once in a lifetime. Um, so make sure that you, you know, you do all of your diligence across every aspect of this, starting with your needs because that's really what's going to dictate when and where you get stubborn within the deal. Um, and so if you can find that you have a far more flexibility and a far lower floor for the deal that makes things that much easier.
Wil Schroter: I think one of the questions that, you know, I, I implore founders to ask isn't what if I sell too early? It's what if I don't sell it. All right.
Ryan Rutan: What if I never sell?
Wil Schroter: Better question correct. Right. If this is my last shot and I pushed it off the table and maybe there's, you know, I think at the time there's good reasons and I'm not discouraging anybody from doing that. What I'm saying is you have to be incredibly realistic that there isn't necessarily a guarantee that this is going to happen again. So if we walk away, if we say it's not enough, we're also walking away or actually coming to terms with the fact that we may never sell this and we're okay with that because if you don't feel that way, if you feel, well I have to sell it, I'm not okay with it. And what are we really talking about here, Right? If we're saying, Hey, this thing is, you know, I'm getting an offer of three. This thing is worth 30. Um, I'm walking away because it's not a big enough offer, but I actually have no clue whether or not this thing is ever going to get back to sail and nobody knows for sure to be fair, right? Like nobody has a crystal ball to know exactly what offer you might get in the future. But what we're talking about Is trying to figure out how to manage some of these downside scenarios, which is to say if I take three and after taxes and paying out some folks or whatever and I've got two left over. Um, and that's going to solve 90% of my problems. I'm going to argue probably 99.9% of my problems then. Really? Where is my fomo right now? And if I left a little bit on the table, you know, so I have that lottery ticket, where is my fomo right now? Hey, I didn't make enough. There aren't that many scenarios in life Where you're going to look back and say I have millions of dollars and it wasn't enough. And again, I've talked to countless founders over 30 years. You know, people have made every level of of sale, you could possibly imagine I've yet to meet founders that tell me I have millions of dollars and it wasn't enough just, and I've met some pretty obnoxious. Uh, they will say I left money on the table, right? But when they look at their lives, if they're being of a smidge honest, they're like, but this actually worked out pretty well.
Ryan Rutan: Yeah, that conversation always tends to go the same way, right? It's like when you're talking to them pre sale, um, there's, there's a lot of fomo and they're really concerned about what's going to happen. Um, and then post sale magically all of that winter way, Right? Um, so I think that, you know, essentially what we're saying is if it's a win, take it, but be really clear on what constitutes the wind, The sail itself isn't the wind, it's the outcome, post the sale, that's the win. But being really clear on what that actually looks like and what you really need and what you have to do within the mechanics of the deal to accomplish that, that's where you're gonna win or lose, right? That's where the win is created. So being really, really honest about these things, um, is what will help you determine whether it's a win and then you don't have to evaluate it against anything else, right? Um, if you, if you do some dumb sports analogy here, right? If if Madrid wins against Barcelona today, that doesn't change whether or not they might win against Liverpool the next week, right? It doesn't have anything to do with that. You need to focus on the wind that's happening right now. Focus on the game that's in front of you, determine what the conditions for winning in that particular scenario are, and if it's a win it's a win.
Wil Schroter: Alright, so that was fun, but let's actually keep this conversation going. You've heard what we think about this, but you know, Ryan and I would really like to hear what you think and we're online, like all day long, pretty much talking about every startup topic you could think of from fundraising, the customer acquisition to just really had to get all of this crazy startup stuff out of your head. And there's tons of other founders, just like you, they're weighing in on these topics, you'll get a chance to just hang out and meet some really smart founders were also super, super easy to find. You head over to groups dot startups dot com and let Ryan and I hear what's on your mind, let's get to know each other a little bit and let's just start having
Ryan Rutan: more of these
Wil Schroter: conversations