Startup Therapy Podcast

Episode #90


Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan from startups dot com joined as ever by my friend and the Ceo and founder of startups dot com Wil Schroder will today, we're going to talk about something that just really never, ever, ever happens in the life of a founder and that's uh, that's a failure. But you and I, we're we're revisiting a story and and this isn't recent history, this, this goes back a couple of years, but I think it's a great illustration and I think it'd be awesome if we could kind of walk through what failure really looks like and and how we can maybe make the, the whole concept of failure a little less scary for everybody listening,

Wil Schroter: you know what it reminds me of? It reminds me of jumping in the water for the first time. Like, let's say you're swimming or something like that is terrifying. By definition is terrifying. But if you put a giant giant life vest on and you know, you're going to float, it gives you a little bit of certainty that at least you're not gonna sink to the bottom. Unpacking failure is kind of the same thing, like on its surface, it sounds horrifying and terrible, but once you unpack it a bit, it starts to build this kind of life vest to say, you know, I'm actually going to be okay, are

Ryan Rutan: there sharks involved?

Wil Schroter: Yeah, Oh yeah, you get eaten by sharks at the end. So let it

Ryan Rutan: be clear here because in that case to identify the body then.

Wil Schroter: Yeah. Uh but I gotta say right of all the tough conversations that we have with founders, I really think the looking into the abyss of failure conversation continues to be the conversation where we bring the most amount of guidance and kind of shed the most amount of light because founders are just really bad at this and it's a big problem because it's a big part of what we do.

Ryan Rutan: But you did just also kind of say that you and I are really good failing. So

Wil Schroter: we're here to help you have to be, it's part of, it's part of the job. But look, I'll give an example. Years ago, a friend of mine was in a really tough spot. He'd grown this business through some, some bank debt, actually not, you know, investor funding in this case, which is actually, if you think about a little more scary because you're typically tied to it. But he'd grown this business to a $30 million 30 million. So he really, really hustled to get there was really impressive And he got the business to 30 million in a couple of things happened. Uh, some contracts went sideways. Uh, stuff that, frankly, again, I know him and I know the business well enough to know that there's really nothing he could have done about it. It's one of those things kind of like covid decimated a lot of businesses. This was just a contract that the contract changed and it did not benefit him. And overnight he went from nearly 30 million of revenue to almost zero. He had 450 full time employees. And this was his first go around and it happened so fast that he could barely see it coming.

Ryan Rutan: How many years because I I don't remember the detail in this part. How many years did he spend building that business from 0 to 30

Wil Schroter: million? It was crazy. Not that many in the grand scheme of startups. I think it was like five years, five years,

Ryan Rutan: but it's just pretty

Wil Schroter: good context.

Ryan Rutan: It's a great run. It's a great run to hit 30 million. But just to put it in context, that's a, you know, just a little less than it takes the average state college graduate to finish their degree. And but it's five years, right. It's not an insignificant amount of time either. But it's happening. We've been running startups dot com and then it went south overnight, right? It's, it's the, it's the speed of the turn sometimes that can really, really trigger that that fight or flight which is typically flight response in the founder that I think makes these conversations that much harder,

Wil Schroter: correct. And so When he was in the midst of this, he called me up and he just needs some help. And I said, look, there is a very specific prescription for how to handle the emotion of this and to be honest 90% about of what you're about to go through is going to be the emotion of it. 10% are the actual action items and things that you need to get done. But what happens and this is where you know, it's kind of like a pilot going into a spin before he thinks to eject if you can't assess the situation and say look this situation is messed up and I'm going to have to be able to contain myself and kind of manage the situation both emotionally and again strategically you just spend all of your energy being terrified. You know, not thinking to eject, so to speak.

Ryan Rutan: Well I'm gonna have to ask for a moment of silence for goose.

Wil Schroter: He should have known better. So here's the thing when people look at failure, they typically look at failure as this big amorphous cloud and they just know it's bad, they just know it's going to rain and thunder and all this stuff but they don't really take the time because they're so terrified of it to unpack it to stop and say okay what actually is failure going to be and here's what will typically happen. When I asked folks, they say, okay, you've got failure in front of you, we've got, you know, the potential of failure in front of you unpack it for me, what's going to happen invariably Ryan. I get kind of the same categories of answers, my investors are going to be piste off in this case, in his case, the bank, my employees, I'm gonna let them down. You know, I worked really hard and build great relationships to all these people. Some of these people are close friends and I'm gonna let them all down. They're all going to get fired or laid off and of course customers and then there's my reputation, there's all these other things, you know, and I said, okay, those are all bad things within the cloud. We get that. But then what? Well, I'm going to go bankrupt. Okay, Are you right. Well, yeah, I'm gonna have no money. Okay, but are you going to actually be bankrupt? You see, we start peeling back the onion on this, right? And what happens is invariably, almost every single time the founder only has answers to the high level issues, right? I'm gonna have to lay people off or I'm gonna have a tough conversation with investors, etcetera, but they never go beyond that. And I think at its core, that's where the failures.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, I think the other thing that exacerbates this is, we talked about this previously that founders tend to always be in pitch mode, right? That we're constantly building up our startups and we have to, right, we've got to get other people to believe in what we're doing and I think that and, and you've probably got some, uh, some some personal stories that you can share around this particular aspect, but when you've spent a lot of time kind of building this up and selling it and you know, making it sound wonderful and awesome. And maybe at the time you were saying that it was or it was on its way to being that. And then all of a sudden that narrative has to turn. Typically what I see is that there's this period where just nothing gets said, nothing gets discussed, they don't seek advice, they don't seek guidance. And there's just this quiet period in the dark by themselves where where these these problems grow and grow and grow and I don't necessarily mean in reality, just in their minds, even right, it's it's like the shadow of something cast up on the wall, right? The reality is it's something quite small. But what you're seeing in front of you now grows as you sit in silence by yourself and you you wait too long to open the door on this narrative with another founder, with your investors, with your employees, with people who can help you understand what the reality situation is, Right? Like that. First layoff is the scariest conversation ever, right? Until you've had it. And then you realize that, you know, they're not happy about it, they might even be upset, but it's not the end of the world, right? And and then you can move on, but I think that there's usually this period in which there's some inaction inability to move that tends to exacerbate these situations pretty severely,

Wil Schroter: You know what I think happens is it reminds me of the anticipation of when I go to get blood drawn, I hate getting blood drawn. Like it's, it's one of my biggest, not fears, but like frustrations in anxiety moments and the moment the doctor says, hey, I'm gonna need blood work from you. And then I think about man, I know I'm gonna stress about this for like every day until I actually have to get this done and then when I get it done, I'm not kidding, I'm getting cold sweats, sitting on the uh, you know, sitting on the chair ready to get blood drawn. And in my mind it's just this horrible, horrible thing that's going to happen. In reality, it's 30 seconds of discomfort, right in every single time it happens, I realized I was being a total baby about it, but yet I create this cloud that lacks definition. If I had to unpack it, I would be like, isn't it gonna feel like a mosquito bite for like less than a fraction of a second and then I feel nothing and then I just go home

Ryan Rutan: and I feel like being run through by Sir Lancelot,

Wil Schroter: okay? And that's the thing though, you know, we build this up in our minds to be this massive thing. However, for founders, it's not just about getting a, you know, a shot, so to speak for founders, we don't have the luxury of feeling that way. We're more specifically getting distracted that way. We can feel it. But getting distracted by that in causing us to make poor decisions or not be able to act the way we need to or especially with our team because it's not just us, if if I'm freaking out, my team is freaking out and now everything I do has this ripple effect and now everyone is freaked out about what's going to happen and we all perform poorly, which just exacerbates the problem. So our head space as a founder is absolutely critical. And so this, you know, the stuff we'll walk through and some of the techniques isn't just about making me feel better, it's making me act better. You know what I mean? For

Ryan Rutan: sure. I've actually heard you say this to somebody where, where the piece of advice you gave them was like, like right now you're, you're focused on not failing rather than on succeeding, which in moments where failure seems seems like it's it's the likely outcome. It's easy to do, but it's easy to fall into that trap break. I'm on the precipice. So, you know, the thoughts of succeeding that maybe have have evacuated my head. However, you know, to your point, we need to be able to dissect what the failure actually is whether or not we're even going to to fully, fully feel the impact of a, I think a total failure, right? Because there's, there's lots of little failures that happened and then there's catastrophic failure, like, like our friend went through and by the way, like, well put, put the, put the cap on that one though, because there's a, there's a happy end to that story of sorts.

Wil Schroter: Well let's walk through how we got to the happy ending, so to speak. It wasn't a picnic for this guy at all. You know, he went through some really, really tough stuff. However, specifically when we talked about his issue, I said, here's how to unpack it. You need to take everything that you're thinking about and apply to filters? The first filter is impact. How much impact is that factor going to actually have? In other words, when you talk to your investors, how much impact will it have on them? When you talk to your employees, how much impact will it have on them? And when we have to unpack that further. And the second is the timeline for how long will that impact happen? Here's an example, my, you know, unreasonable fear of getting my blood drawn, same thing. Will how much impact that will, will that have? Well, ultimately it's going to be kind of a mosquito bite. Right? And how long will that be a problem for less than a fraction of a second. When you put it like that, it's actually, it's not much of a problem. I'm still going to have, you know, some anxiety around it, but when I start to think about things in absolute terms and not again those amorphous terms, it allows me to act on it, right? So in this case he and I were walking through the problem and I said, okay, let's walk through each part. And he says, well I've got about a million dollars of bank debt that I've personally guaranteed. He said, okay, what's the impact of defaulting on that? Well, they're gonna come after me, can they collect on it? Well, no, because I don't have any money, it's a problem for them, not for you. And and again, not not to be crass about it, but I was trying to help him understand, you know, kind of where and how the impact lands the second one was going to be and what's the timeline of that collectibility? Like, like how long will that be a problem for you? It's like, well, I would imagine if if at some point they know they can't collect that, you know, they're gonna have to write off the debt, okay, let's find out generally what that timeline looks like. So we understand how that would impact you now that doesn't make his problem go away. The bank still wants to collect, they're still gonna have tough conversations with the bank, but he's now starting to realize that this isn't some shackle that just goes on him for the rest of his life, that that it's a number of specific conversations with specific outcomes and it's a timeline that does go away. Yeah. So what we were doing in each case was again peeling back the onion and saying, okay, as we get further into this, what actually does happen. And more specifically, I think this is the most important part. What can we do about it? Because the worst thing we can do with fear is not have an action plan tied to it and just live in the fear,

Ryan Rutan: right? Just let the monster hang out in the corner and hope it doesn't need us.

Wil Schroter: Exactly. And I think as we started to go through each category of his concerns, one of them was I have to let go of 450 people. Again, there's no part of this exercise where we're trying to say that that that doesn't hurt or that's not painful. We're not trying to minimize the feeling. We're trying to minimize The amorphous nature of it. And so what we're trying to say is, okay, 450 people, we're gonna have to let them go and which is brutal. However, Will they all get jobs? Well, yeah, I mean, they probably all have jobs within the next few weeks to a couple of months. Okay, so you haven't permanently put 450 people out of work. You see what I'm saying. Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: yeah, it's again, like you said it's it's it's impacting timeline, right? Yes, they lost their job. Yes, that's going to be awful. No, it's not going to last for for for that long, right? And you know, so like again, as you're saying, you unpack each piece of the failure dissected down to its smallest parts, look at the particular aspects of it and then I love this impact in timeline framework because I think it just makes it really, really easy to to a figure out within what to do, right? Because then then you can start to think about, okay, well how can I minimize the impact and how can I shorten the timeline? Right? So we talked about this before, like when, you know, if when when employees move on or we've had to let people go, you know, we we do everything we can to minimize that impact that individual and to shorten the timeline of the space in which they're not working right? We open up rolodexes, we try to make good intros make good handoffs. Right? So but if you're just looking at this as 450 people are out of jobs right? Like that's super amorphous. I I can't do anything about 450 people but at an individual level I can do things that reduce the impact and shorten the timeline and so it makes this a much easier, much less painful and very, very obvious process.

Wil Schroter: I think the timeline component is really important. Yeah. Here's what probably the most actually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so the first time that I had to shut down one of my funded startups, again, not cool, but, but I didn't have this framework and frankly this is where I started to develop this, where you developed it. Yeah, yeah. And essentially what happened was I had raised some money from the company. We couldn't raise another round. We had to shut it down, but not without the longest, most painful fight. I wish I had me in my corner just, you know, future me to come and tell me what a horrible mistake I was making. But that's a whole other episode.

Ryan Rutan: There's a whole lot of cases

Wil Schroter: where I wish that. And so I got to this point where I was just just stricken with, with fear of how was I possibly going to own up to all these investors that had not only backed me, but backed me very publicly. You know, made a lot of introductions and you know, it kind of threw their weight behind me. You know, what can I possibly say to them. And to be fair, this was the first time I'd ever raised capital. So I didn't really have a shot on goal before this, but it's the first time most people have raised capital. So that's why they feel this way. And so I had this in my head that I was going to go in front of this giant committee where they're on some huge, you know, some, some huge podium or throne room, right? And I'm just this dinky little person like at a Senate hearing and, and I'm trying to like, explain to them how I've lost all of their money and they've got these godlike voices that are, you know, throwing down on me, you, you abject failure, how dare you. And it was so funny, I ended up having these conversations, right? We had to call the folks up and let them know it was game over. No one gave a shit. Half

Ryan Rutan: of them probably saw it coming, right? Like they're like, well we knew this was over six months ago. Oh

Wil Schroter: my God, it was like, dude, we wrote this off like a year ago, like, what are you still doing here? And in my mind again, I had the amorphous cloud, I built this up to be this just pent ultimate moment that was going to like ruin my career and like, I'm shackled and vanished into like, you know, this, this startup Netherworld And no one cared

Ryan Rutan: right?

Wil Schroter: What I didn't understand was that while this is centrally important to me and it's a major chapter of my life, it's a blip in everybody else's lives, right? It's it's your

Ryan Rutan: universe to them, it's a shooting star, right? It burned burned out. It's gone now, Okay, move on.

Wil Schroter: Next. It's a dinnertime conversation with their spouse, right? That's about it now.

Ryan Rutan: And you're like, okay, so let's go over the three that failed today, right? And then they go through their bullet list. It's, it's just, it isn't not that it's not that it doesn't matter right? Like of course they need to, they need to get return on their investments, why they do this. But again, like it's not central to their lives, right? They don't rely on the success of each and every one of them look at the success rates from VC companies and you'll

Wil Schroter: understand that they expect most of you to fail. That is just the way it goes and to your point, it's not that it doesn't matter. Ryan, it's that it didn't matter anywhere near as much as I thought it did. You were

Ryan Rutan: seeing that giant monster on the wall and it turned out it was just a teddy bear sitting in front of a flashlight, right? Like it was still a problem, but it wasn't as big a problem as you made it. You made it out to

Wil Schroter: be right here is the second part of it for anybody that's had to let someone go, right. If you're being let go, you never think that the person who had to let you go. I didn't just come up with that idea of five seconds ago and decided to like all of a sudden, hit the trigger on that. They've been thinking about it and have all kinds of consternation and guilt and all these feelings leading up to that moment. And so for them it's been stressful for weeks and months and again, not discounting the person that was on the other end of getting laid off. But my point is that person had to go through all kinds of stress, most likely in order to even get to that point. For many of us, we forget that once we deliver that information, we've gone through all the consternation. But once we deliver the information, it's done

Ryan Rutan: right.

Wil Schroter: We don't have to fire the person the next day, the next day and the next day. And so for as much consternation as we go through as the employer, The conversations typically last 15 minutes tops. There's only so many different ways to say, we have to let you go and once it's done it's just done now. That's the way these things work in our minds. Like in my mind, I would even just say, you know, put it on everybody in my mind, shutting this thing down was going to be all of these painful long conversations that would be going back and forth for years. I don't know why. By the way, I have no idea why I thought that was a conversation. People wanted to keep calling me and talking to me about.

Ryan Rutan: People are gonna want to move on pretty quickly from you. Like, okay, well that's good. It's over. I'm gone

Wil Schroter: Our team, our advisors are investors all within about three hours and no one gave a ship, right? Which says a lot about the quality of my company. But at this point that's not the only time I've seen this generally what happens is we get all freaked out. We kind of come up to the firing line terrified of what's going to happen and it always ends in a whimper. Just nobody cares. I mean, they care. Don't get me wrong, getting let go as you know, has impact. But I'm saying not the way we thought it was going to go down Right. Like in my mind when I was going to have that conversation or my friend's mind who built a $30 million dollar company, it was this visual of the death star exploding, right? This massive thing, right? Or all Iran with, you know, a million voices screaming out, right? And and the truth is it was just a blip. And again, I'm not minimizing it to the point where it doesn't affect the founder or the people that that it's in their world. I'm talking about the the the size of that tidal wave just isn't nearly as big as what we think it is. You know, No,

Ryan Rutan: and again, you go back to it, its, its impact and and timeline and what's interesting is that even without unpacking. So like we've been talking about unpacking failure and you know, looking at the constituent pieces and then how you treat each of those with this impact and timeline, I think that there there's another, there's another aspect to this and we can look at it at the, at the macro macro macro level, right? And let's assume that it is going to be a total failure, right? Because sometimes there's, you know, there's partial failures, there's things that, you know, that, you know, part of the company's failing or we have a bad period and we've, we've failed at something that we come back. But even if we, even if it's a total shutdown, total failure, like, like, you know, you're funded startup, we can apply the same, we can apply the same framework and this is where it becomes pretty obvious that the most important part of the impact in timeline piece is actually timeline. It's counterintuitive, right? Because you think, well, if it's a huge impact, doesn't matter how long it lasts actually.

Wil Schroter: Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: Right. But I think one of the challenges is that because we're not breaking down failure, we're looking at it is this giant amorphous thing. We don't think of it as a point in time and we view failure as a permanent state, right? The impact is company failed. Yeah, that's as bad as it gets unless company failed and on the way out of the building, we accidentally lit it on fire and the whole thing burned down really, that would be a little bit worse. But let's assume that company failure was as bad as it got the timeline on that isn't permanency, right? I've heard you refer to this as, you know, you know, being branded with the scarlet letter, right? Like I'm a failed startup founder and now here for Henceforth I will carry the scarlet letter. But as you said,

Wil Schroter: nobody gives a shit,

Ryan Rutan: right? Nobody

Wil Schroter: actually cares. They don't remember.

Ryan Rutan: Right. Think of someone like, what's the, what's the biggest recent, epic failure you can think of?

Wil Schroter: Uh well, we've got we work, we've got Quimby, we've got Theranos and let me, let me put it this way, I'm gonna I'm gonna switch it on you if you can have a failure so big that you that you are known in the Hall of Fame of failures, That's a bit of an accomplishment. That's actually yeah, that's true. That's true. I don't wish that outcome on anybody. I just say, like, look, if you failed at that level, at least you got to that level to even fail. But I I guess the way I think about it is, And I think, you know what you're referencing is even the biggest failures of all time are footnotes in our brains. If I look back at my failures from, say, 10 years ago, like the startup that I was referencing. I don't even really remember it. I mean, I like, I remember bits and parts like enough to tell the story, but that's about it, but that's not the way you think about at that time. No, of course not. Right. At the time you're thinking, oh my God, I'm going to wake up every day for the rest of my life with this failure and and I'm always going to have it with me. It's just not true. If you become a sandwich artist, it's Subway,

Ryan Rutan: here we go. That's all that's left for me.

Wil Schroter: We always picture this, you know, movie ending where we're doing the worst job we can think of or you know, the most mundane life we could think of. And we're just always thinking back to that one moment where we had it, we had our shot, right. And like it just generally doesn't work that way. Right? The the startup rolls up, you move on and everyone just moves on and yeah, it's a it's a footnote in our career. But again, you know, that was at the time my only failure because I only started a couple companies before that and I thought it was going to live with me forever. I don't ever think about it unless we're doing an episode where I specifically have to try to recall it. It never occurs to me totally forgotten about, right?

Ryan Rutan: Yeah. Like if we hadn't talked about it today. I may never have thought about Elizabeth Holmes again in my

Wil Schroter: life, right, right? And and so with my friend that we talked about at the top of the episode Who had this $30 million dollar company. It did in fact shut down at record speed And he had to let 450 people go, he had to, you know, default on the note with the bank a year later. He comes to me and he said, you're not going to believe this. He said everything kind of just got settled. You know, the, the bank write off the debt. You know, my friends got other jobs so on and so forth. I'm actually starting the same business again, right? Yeah, I'm starting from scratch. Obviously, I know a lot of things that I just didn't know the first time. And to be fair, like he kind of got screwed. So again I want to give him credit and now he's got nearly the same size business again, a couple really, really important notes to that. He could have just gotten consumed by failure, right? He could have said that was my shot I guess in life you get one shot, I don't know why anybody would think that, I guess you get one shot, that was it. So now I'm going to, you know, just kind of like, you know, curl curl up in the fetal position and you know, cry about the rest of my life. He just didn't and I'm not saying that the motion doesn't factor in by all means process the emotions, but also get back on the horse, right? And and go build and that's what he did and that's why he's got a kick ass company now,

Ryan Rutan: you know it's interesting because obviously you know that there can be some some ptsd and there can be some scarring around failure um once you've you've gone through it um and going through failure is is terrible. There's another aspect to this and it's a conversation that I have a lot and it's people who don't start their business in the first place because they're afraid of failure sure and and they have all these same interesting, you know, misconceptions about it, you know, well you know it's my get one shot at this, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna blow my life savings, I'm gonna fail, it's gonna, it's gonna be forever. Um You know it's better not to try it and and all this stuff and and it's really interesting to me that before people have even gone through it, they're using this as a barrier and they're like, you know what, you know if I completely fail, I'll burn my life savings, I'll be bankrupt and like how far are you from bankrupt right now, like how much money do you have in the bank? Like you are talking like, you know it's a trust fund, I didn't hear about, you know, are you hundreds of millions of dollars sitting in the bank and they're like no, like how long did it take you to build that now? We've really only been saving for three years and like, okay, so what you're talking about is risking three years of savings to go and do something that you really want to do. So why are you letting the fear of failure, like grow to be this monumental thing that now I will forever destroy our lives and the lives of my family if I start this thing, if I fail. And so it's interesting that that failure is actually a big part of the narrative prior to even starting the

Wil Schroter: business well, and I think because we constantly build on it, right, we keep making it worse, we create in action, which is ironically the greatest tool to failing is in action. And what we also do is that we talked about this earlier, we kind of project that failure, whether we intend to or not, right? If if the boat's sinking and you're just like boats sinking, we're going to the bottom of the ocean, let's just cry about it. Um then yes, you're going to go to the bottom of the ocean, but if you said, hey, maybe paddle a bit, get out of this thing. The first thing I do when there's a hole in the boat, I go and look for a

Ryan Rutan: bottle of wine because then you've got a cork that will potentially seal the hole. And if not at least you're going down

Wil Schroter: happy. It's clever, but look, I guess, I guess, you know, when, when we think about failure as founders and it's something we all have to contend with. I think whether whether we're on the eve of Epic shut down or not, we still have to have this tool set, we still have to be really, really good at unpacking and assessing failure because Ryan, I think there's another side to this if we're not good at assessing failure, if we're not good at unpacking it and basically making it manageable, it makes it fairly hard to make bold moves.

Ryan Rutan: It does for sure. It's it's funny because this is, and you and I have talked about this, founders are pretty good at looking forward at something that they need to create, right? Some an outcome that they want to have happen and then dissecting that into its constituent parts. You know, where they use a framework like, okay, are where you're saying like, well, here's our big objective here, the key results and here are all the actions that feed into that and here's how we're going to attack this problem, or here's how we're going to approach this opportunity and here's how we're going to succeed with it, right? And again, like that same framework applies. We look at impact and timeline, right? We're constantly doing this and as good founders were pretty damn good at doing it the minute the conversation turned towards failure and we have to face the other direction and say, here's something we want to avoid. All that goes out the window. For some reason. It's like, we were like, oh, the rules of this game are completely different. The reality is they're not same rules, right. Different, different potential outcomes, right? And different actions that need to address it. But the framework is essentially the same. And so I think we need to remember that the same things that put us on a success trajectory, you know, and and now maybe turned the other way and now we're heading towards failure are the same things that will get us back on to that success trajectory. That's a wrap for this episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan on behalf of my partner Wil Schroder and all the startups dot com family thanking you for joining us and we hope you'll continue to join us. Be sure to subscribe rate and comment on itunes or wherever you love to listen to startup therapy, you can find all of our episodes at startups dot com slash podcast. If you're looking for more amazing resources to launch or grow your startup, be sure to head to startups dot com and check out startups unlimited. It's everything we have to offer from our online university to our amazing community of experts and founders and even all the tools we've built like biz plan, fungible and launch rock. It's everything a founder needs visit startups dot com slash begin that startups dot com slash b e g i n. You'll thank me later.

Copyright © 2022 Startups.com LLC. All rights reserved.