Startup Therapy Podcast

Episode #53


Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startups therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan joined as always by Wil Schroder, my partner and Ceo of startups dot com will today, we're going to talk about something near and dear to both of our hearts. Um, and that's what should we be teaching kids about startup companies.

Wil Schroter: I think a lot of people have an opinion on this because you know, we're all of course parents in some right or will be, but at the other side is we all came up through a system that was mainly broken and we're founders grasping to try to find that hint of something we learned that could be useful for what we're doing right now and we're usually having a tough time with it. There's a lot of other things in life where you can pull from what you learned in school, being an entrepreneur usually isn't one of them. In fact, it's the common broken narrative that everything I needed to know about entrepreneurship, I learned somewhere else.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, you know that box of cables that's in everybody's parents basement where you've like saved every cable ever and you want to go through and you want to find something useful, it's never in there. You just never

Wil Schroter: find it. Yeah, man, and I think the conversation has gotten to the point, uh, you know, among the world stage really about kind of the state of education etcetera uh, that it's almost laughable and every country kind of has its own version, but you know, in the United States, which is the education system we're going to talk about mostly today, although you'll probably have some comments about what things look like out of the country. I think part of the dialogue has been around, what is the future that we're preparing kids for And what the hell are we teaching them right now? Because it's certainly not based on the future, you know, were largely teaching within a program that was designed 50 plus years ago and without a lot of changes. And it's, uh, I'm not saying change all of education, but I'm saying as it relates to teaching kids to become founders, there's a whole other world that we need to consider and I think it would be fun to kind of unpack that today. Yeah,

Ryan Rutan: I agree. And, and look, we're, yeah, like you said, we're not, we're not down on education and we understand the plight of education, right, Which is that you're trying to take kids and prepare them for something in, in the future that you can't see right, a lot like building a startup company, we're doing things under terms of high uncertainty and it's, it's really unclear what the skill sets that will be required to be successful in the future will be. But I think you and I will both agree that giving kids this entrepreneurial mindset and, and problem solving and wanting ownership and, and wanting to build things and being curious, um, has to work at least as well as preparing them for an industrial economy that no longer exists.

Wil Schroter: Well, let's, let's start with the fundamentals because I think, you know, again, people have pretty strong opinions about uh how kids should be taught or kind of what's broken in the system, et cetera. What I think we should discuss first, you know, it kind of just setting the stage Is why kids, you know, when we're talking about kids, we're talking about kindergarten through 12th grade, you know, why is it important that we're teaching kids entrepreneurship? Uh, and what is it about entrepreneurship that isn't just about getting a job? You know, what are some of those kind of core developmental skills that we want to hone that again, aren't necessarily about whether you become a founder of a company. I would argue if I had an entire school of kids that I was teaching about entrepreneurship and not a single one started another company, they would be 100 x more effective in just about any other job they would go into because they would have so many core skills,

Ryan Rutan: I'd agree with that hands down.

Wil Schroter: And I, I think the other thing Ryan and you know, I've talked about this in the past, the reason, I think we need to start as early as possible is because we need to start with a foundation, which says early in life, when there's an idea in your head, we've taught you a mechanism to get it out of your head full grown adults don't have those mechanisms, kids definitely don't have them. You know, if I'm thinking, hey, this would be a really cool video game concept, but I have no idea how to get that concept out of my head and into an actual video game or I see that this is a really cool toy, I would have loved to develop, you know, when I was a kid, if I could have created my own G I joes, that would have been all about

Ryan Rutan: it.

Wil Schroter: But we don't teach kids that, that's possible. We don't teach them that if there's an idea in your head, you can make that happen in the world.

Ryan Rutan: It isn't funny because we see this manifest itself all the time in, in conversations with grown up founders. Right? As we're talking to these adults, they're still hung up on the fact that they don't know they're allowed to do these things, even though they're grown ups because as you're saying, we didn't build that foundation, we didn't give them permission at that point in their youth to be able to do these things and leave that creative gate open,

Wil Schroter: let's stick with permission because I think that's such a powerful unlocking mechanism for really anybody at any age, but certainly to be taught with kids permission in this context has as many variants. One of them is I have permission to pursue an idea. In other words, I have this idea in my head and it's okay for me to go pursue it and see it through, I will have the tools to go get it done, it might break, and that's okay versus I have to only work with absolutely fixed items, you know what I mean? Things that already exist in the world manipulated such

Ryan Rutan: color within the lines.

Wil Schroter: And I think when I work with kids now, like when I talk to kids about entrepreneurship, et cetera, what I love about working with them, uh, and, and be worth noting, I'm really active in my kids school. Um, I've got essentially a preschooler and a second grader and we're working on a program throughout the school and we'll talk about this more in the program To teach every kid from K through 12 entrepreneurship. And so this has been something, you know, it's been a lot of cycles on and as parent entrepreneurs, it's something we think about nonstop. But what I love with working with the kids is their brains are so fresh, they haven't been taught no yet, which is so powerful. Yeah, There are no rails

Ryan Rutan: on the thinking, right? There's no reason the thinking, there's no no questions about whether this is possible or not because the reality is they don't know, right? They haven't been given enough information at this point to stop the thought,

Wil Schroter: right? It reminds me of the elephant with the chain on its leg, you know, it goes so long with a chain and it's like that as it grows, it doesn't realize that it can't just walk away and break it. And I think for kids, uh we need to make sure that chain never gets put on. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think in an amorphous context. I think the earlier we can teach kids that. Yes, you can solve problems, you can create problems. You know, they see problems in the world, identify problems in your life and solve them. Um Whether or not you commercialize that and turn it into a business doesn't

Ryan Rutan: matter. Doesn't

Wil Schroter: give an example. If I were a kid in today's era, I grew up in the 80s, like nothing compared to what's there today, right from the Internet to three D. Printing. I would have been a busy boy. Ah And you could have said, hey, here's the G. I joe guys you're playing with. Um But guess what if there's three different ones that that you know, you would love to see that didn't exist. You can just go make those happen if there's bad guys that don't exist or good guys that don't exist, right? Like you can just go make them that unlocking mechanism would have been so powerful for me. I would have, I would have eaten that up.

Ryan Rutan: I'm just trying to picture what the G. I joe with the hockey stick would have looked

Wil Schroter: like. But I mean, look the point here and I don't I don't think we need to belabor this, those kids have this amazing early sense of wonder, and I think over time, that wonder that natural curiosity gets blunted, and I think that's a huge challenge. We need to be able to capture that natural curiosity and at that time arm it with a formative ability to turn that curiosity into a real world objects, so to speak, right, and to be able to see these things through so powerful in a time and a place in the world where that can actually be done.

Ryan Rutan: Yes, I think it's a it's a well established fact that kids are sponges, right? And not only sponges, but they can take all of that information that they absorb, and they can synthesize it without barriers, and that's that's a really important point, right? They can take this information, they can turn it into things of their own. And I think that's a really important concept we should spend some time talking about, and that's that's ownership, right? So when you create something right? It is, it is of your making. I've seen my kids get, like, insanely excited about a plato blob, that was some creature that was indiscernible from just a plato blob, but to them, there was something really amazing and special about that, because they created it, they had ownership of it, right? When you have, you know, an idea in your head, and it's something that you want to pursue, and there's a concept that you've made the level of interest and the level of, of, of passion of, of willingness and desire to, to put energy into that is completely different, right? It's the reason kids will sit and play with legos or play dough for hours. You give them, you know, a toy that just does one thing. It's one trick pony, they're done with it relatively quickly. And it's not just because the toy itself is boring because they could do the same thing with that toy, but they don't feel that same sense of ownership. And I think that's, it's a really powerful point that gets overlooked very often with kids.

Wil Schroter: Kids don't get to experience it. If we're lucky enough at adults, sometimes we get a taste of it. I see this happen a lot at startup weekends, right? So I've been to a ton of them in all different cities and it's such a great program. And if you're not familiar, it's, it's a program where essentially, uh, people will get together a bunch of strangers at a local facility And they spend 54 hours working on an idea together at the end of the 54 hours and Sunday night they pitched that idea to, you know, Mark, panel of judges and, and they, they say which one is best, but by sunday night, the people talking about their ideas aren't talking about a job, they're talking about something that they own, they feel like it's part of them. In fact, if you, if you rip into the idea, if you're one of those mock investors shark tank style that kind of rips into the ideal, uh, they take it very personally and I love that because they have ownership. And I always think to myself, right? I think what if more and more people in the world had true ownership of what they're working on and I'm not talking about equity ownership. I mean like personal vested stake, the way we have personal vested steaks and things like our kids. Um, I hate to say our pets when I say, I hate to say it, I don't want to compare kids and pets, but people are very, very strongly about their pets. Right? That deep personal connection that goes beyond that. This is just some product or, or business. I think giving the kids a taste of that early on is something that you can't reverse. You can't put that toothpaste back in the bottle. And I think it's one of the most powerful things that kids can learn and take with them no matter what they do with that as they move forward.

Ryan Rutan: Where do you think this starts to break down? Like if we want to go back and kind of compare that to the educational systems, we were talking about the at the top, where do you feel like there would be some easy points for them to do this and why aren't we? I guess that's that's one of my big questions as always, why isn't this already happening? Like this doesn't seem, I mean it seems obvious to you and I, because we spend day and night thinking about these things, but why isn't this obvious to the educational system? Why aren't they thinking like, hey, we need to give kids more of a chance to take ownership in there? And there's, there are some things now where you got these, you know, Children directed learning paths and things like that, but it's still very much a choose your own adventure type thing rather than a write your own damn book, which is not the same thing.

Wil Schroter: Ryan, when you and I were growing up many moons ago, The whole concept was, there's like 12 jobs out there and you have to pick which one he was. I still remember

Ryan Rutan: the results of my last aptitude test that was supposed to point me towards my careers. I was either going to be a forest ranger or a lawyer.

Wil Schroter: That's so specific, right? But but but but think about that. So, uh, we weren't designed as an educational system to set people up for just infinite creative freedom. It was kind of like, you know, more of a put people into particular types of jobs that all made sense at that time. And, and to be fair, it worked pretty well, you know, society as a whole did just fine. Uh, our issue is just that, that, that things have changed so much that that same system doesn't work the same when we want to talk about why are we still teaching? And if we wanted to kind of zoom out and say, you know what's broken, I think there's some, some straw men that we have to kind of like take off the table when people say, you know, teachers don't see it. I've never spoken to a teacher that doesn't see it. It's never seemed to be a problem to me, administrators don't see it. I haven't talked to all the administrators in the world, but generally speaking of whom I've talked to, they seem pretty, it seems pretty. It's one of those things like everyone sees it, but actually making the change is dramatic. And this is the twist here. I don't think in the near term, let's call the near term the next 5 to 15 years that the change will happen at a purely call it bureaucratic level whereby all the, you know, the levers get moved at once. But that doesn't mean that change can happen. I believe the change has to happen among the parents founders, like the folks listening to this podcast. I think we all have to suit up in the same way, if there is nobody teaching our kids soccer team, we would jump in and coach the soccer team. We've got to bring entrepreneurship, we've got to bring some of that extra level of education and our expertise and experiences to the table, like we've got to show up and, and and integrate, there's no other way to do it. I like that so

Ryan Rutan: much. So, so there's something that I want to stick on every second and that's this, this is the concept that you brought about, if if nobody's coaching the soccer team, then you jump in and coach, right? Because I feel like, you know, saying to get the parents involved and and I think that as entrepreneurs, we tend to do this anyways right, with our own kids at least, and maybe, you know, some of the close friends, but I think that when you said that what it sparked in me was this thought that there needs to be something more formal going on here, right? And I don't know if we need to start up League, um started Little League, but something along those lines, right? Where there's, it's not just happening through osmosis because my kids are going to get that, your kids are going to get that right, they're going to see what we do, they're going to hear about the challenges, they're gonna see the upside, they're gonna see the downside. Um you know, they can ask us questions, they've got access to us all the time. Um, so they, through osmosis are going to pick up a lot of these lessons, um, but that doesn't spread the concept of entrepreneurship at scale, and I also agree with you that this isn't all of a sudden, like, you know what common core is dumb, let's teach entrepreneurship right? It could be true, but like you said, it's not likely to happen, so I think that it will begin with with more grassroots efforts, but I do also think it's important that we push it towards the educational system. I don't think it's enough to say, okay for a lot of reasons, and I'll get into a couple of minutes second, I don't think it's enough to simply say, let's just do this outside the educational system. And I think there's a, there's a couple of dangers, there, one, uh, lots of kids are gonna get left behind, right, they're not going to get exposed to it in the way they should, to, my kids are already really busy right at third grade and kindergarten, my kids are already very busy, so the idea of like layering on more things beyond what they're already doing inside that day, especially when I look at the day, and I say like most of this is good, but there's certainly a lot that we could do differently and, and spend that time more effectively in terms of preparing them for what actually comes next. So I like the concept of of, you know, treating this more like a team sport, um, not necessarily from the aspect of teams, but at least from the aspect of if you have these skills, you do owe it to yourself, your community, the, and and and the kids to get in there and do something about it.

Wil Schroter: Let me just explain that if we're talking about a little bit of incense creation, let me talk about how I'm doing it. So last year, when my kids transferred to a new school, um I talked to the administrators about where is entrepreneurship in this program, you know, in the, in the curriculum. Uh and to be fair, it's a private school, it's a super advanced school uh night and day versus the public school that they were going to before. So again, I don't want to overlook this. I was a public school kid myself when we tried in the public schools to get something's moving. It's funny, we were in L. A. County schools which had all shut down at the time. Um it was a total disaster, like trying to get things moved to public schools, the bureaucracy and, and by the way, like the teachers all meant, well all the administrators meant, well they wanted to see stuff happen, it's just their hands were pretty tied, but here's what's interesting and I just want to frame this, we ended up in a private school for litany reasons and the private school says, what do you want to do? Whatever you want to do, Just suit up and go. And I said, I want to teach entrepreneurship, I want to build a preeminent entrepreneurship program at this school? They said, wonderful, you start tomorrow, and just like that a week later, I'm sitting in classrooms talking to kids about entrepreneurship to set the stage. There already was an entrepreneurship class, you know, like a math class that that students were already in. Um so it wasn't like I just created the class, it was already in session, but, but here's the thing and the progress bar of this effort, all of that's like 5-10% and important 5-10% because it's happening. But what I proposed back to the school and what we're working through right now is um, let's figure out how to get entrepreneurship introduced K through 12. This is a, this is a K through 12 school. Incidentally, um let's create a, an incubator inside the school, not because we're going to create tons of companies, but because we want to have, we have clubs for everything, right? You know, there was a chess club, there's an A V club, Why isn't there an entrepreneurship club into some high schools? There are, but the next question is, who's involved in an entrepreneurship club? You say? Well, there's, there's one teacher and maybe a parent volunteer bullshit. I need to get at least 5-10 other parents who either have some interest in entrepreneurship or um or entrepreneurs themselves involved in helping me coach that team? What does that look like? I start pulling the students aside and I said, hey, are any of you particularly interested in learning to build a startup? Students start raising their hand? Cool, I need an hour or two a week from you to start working through your ideas, not a ton of time to your point, Ryan kids got a lot of other stuff going on. Let me get the ball rolling. I think if people try to boil the ocean with this effort going into it and say, oh, I guess you're going to say like every kid needs to be a full time entrepreneur, No, any more than you need to be a full time paper boy back in the day to learn the lesson, right? Um, start with the fundamentals when

Ryan Rutan: you've kicked this off now, what age groups are you working with? I know you've told me, but for listeners benefits, where where are you spending the time?

Wil Schroter: K through eight, is where we want to focus, where we haven't done it yet. This will be next year on ideation. All I want Kindergartners through 8th grader to understand is that problems all around them exist and here are the basics for how to turn those problems into a potential business or product idea. I don't care if you sell anything, I don't care if you make it a business, I just need you to understand how ideation works, that, that ideas are things that we see every day but we often overlook ideas are our natural creativity being brought to life and brought to action. Uh So that's the only focal point. When we get to high school were teaching what I'm going to call commercialization and that goes in three steps. The first step is we're teaching people how ideation works and kind of picking that up and to be something more like instead of just taking it from an idea to like maybe a prototype uh an idea to validation. Should we even build this? The second step is launch um getting just the basic collateral around the business idea like a website or logo or just or like you're the first M. V. P. Of the product that we can actually show somebody and then the last stage is growth and growth is simple man, it's just um sell to one customer, get one user to download your your new rapper, taste your new cookie whatever your businesses. Um just start understanding what progress looks like. These are all super basic things and the students want to do it. It's exciting and these don't have to become venture funded companies. I think when people hear incubator they get the wrong idea, they just need to take students through The full spectrum of what it means to start something. Just so you understand just like startup weekend does to be honest and they do it in 54 hours. Sure

Ryan Rutan: I mean I didn't this get solved back in like 1986 with a lemonade stand,

Wil Schroter: Let me tell you this. You know, a funny funny side note, right? Every single founder that I ever talked to has a story where they created some business as a kid. Funny is funny enough, we all think that we're the only people that did it. Like I sold candy to it so I could eat um but everyone has that story and it is the, you know, the natural entrepreneur in you coming out and I think that needs to be something that every single person experiences, every, every person should have that experience whether they choose to use it or not, correct again, it teaches

Ryan Rutan: problem solving it, it it opens up the world of possibility in the sense that you realize that how you spend your time has far more optionality than you would have been led to believe otherwise. And again, I think this is one of those areas where we would both agree that the current educational system is still failing people by pigeonholing them into a handful of careers. Um, and then prioritizing those careers based on, you know, perceived status or income rather than basing it on your aptitude, desire passion to want to do those things. I'm sure you know, some as well, I know I know a handful of doctors that hate medicine, but that's what they did because their parents pushed them towards it because it would make them more money or that's what they thought, right, that's been a joke and two hands at this point, but um, I think that's one of the things that it exposes you to is that I can create my own life circumstances, I can, you know, take a problem that I see and turn that into something that benefits the people around me, benefits, benefits me as the, as the owner of the concept and I think that, you know, the earlier you can install that the better because I don't know how it went for you. Um you know, we have very similar experiences in terms of selling things, you know, very young and

Wil Schroter: starting entrepreneurship, very

Ryan Rutan: young, but it was sort of accidental, right? It wasn't as if it was exposed to it, it was sort of like, I came across the idea, right? The kid across the street came up with the idea that he was going to practice baseball a lot, right? And he, you know, he played for the mets, so that I ended up working out better for him, but you know, a lot of other kids that were kicking kicking dirt clouds around and throwing balls, um you know, I decided entrepreneurship was gonna be my little sport um, and that's worked out well for me, but again, it was just sort of accidental collision with a concept that led to it rather than any prescribed path or, or any, you know, anything that somebody handed me and said, Hey Ryan, think about this. What if you tried this? What if you did that?

Wil Schroter: Well, okay, so one thing you mentioned that I really liked and I, and I harp on a lot. You know, when we're talking to my kid's school or we're talking about this as a whole, we need to teach kids agency this concept that you can, you can fulfill your own destiny. This isn't just about, you can do anything. That's, that's not really the point. That feels just more aspirational Agency means you don't have to choose these 12 paths. You can go pick a 13th. Agency says, maybe you don't want to do that job or maybe you don't want to do it the way everyone else does. Maybe you love law, but you don't want to be a lawyer agency is your understanding that that's possible, right? Um, I think we get hung up on this very linear path, which is education leads to college. College, college leads to job. You get to pick one career and that's what you do. Clearly that those days are numbered, right? Agency says, I'm going to find what I want to do and I'm gonna look for whatever path gets me there and what I want to do may not be a prescribed job. It may be an interest that leads to a job. And let's face it with every modern profession basically getting either eaten up or transformed in some bizarre way, it's really hard to pick one career and say that's what I'm gonna do

Ryan Rutan: forever. The statistics show that we don't do that, right? Even even if we make that choice, we end up changing careers something like four or five times, Right? Um, and then you end up with, that's one of the reasons you see, sadly a lot of miserable people with high functioning professional careers because they've made such an investment in that career that they don't feel like they can change it, right? I'm stuck with this. Now I've spent, you know, you know, 12 years of of of K through 12. Then I spent four years of undergrad, another four years of residency to get my uh my medical degree, you know, two years or sorry, four years medical school, two years of residency, maybe, you know, a surgical residency. And so now you're 20 plus years in. You're not going to turn around and say, you know what, I think I really would just like to be a woodcarver, right? And maybe that is what you wanted to do. But you can't at this point, right? The sunk cost fallacy starts to kick in and you're trapped by your, your own decisions which were largely made for you right? At some point in your life, which is just an absolute

Wil Schroter: pity. Kids will go into the world with whatever we teach them. So it's incumbent on us to determine what that's going to be. If you're listening to the podcast and you're one of a billion frustrated founder parents saying, yeah, I agree with all of this. But like you know, how do I make this happen? I'm going to go back to what we said a minute ago, Ryan, which is, I don't think all of it has to be a sea change in the, uh, say the public school or even private school, um, curriculum. Yes, that would be great. And maybe someday that will happen in the interim though. I think a lot of it is stuff that we can do with our kids and for other kids, if you know, if we have the cycles to do it whereby we sit down with them and say, hey, there's a few things I need to teach you and I'll teach you the requisite skills. Again, I need to teach you agency so that you know, that you can actually go try and do other things and pursue things that you care about. Not just things that you're good at, which hopefully are one and the same, but aren't always, um, the second is I need to teach you, you know, natural ideation. I need to teach you that things can come out of your head. Um, that can become what you go and do for a living, you don't have to just look at the world as it stands now and pick something, you can invent that world, that's, that's a learned skill. A lot of people don't realize that they think inventors are these peoples with this, this special Albert Einstein, you know, um, special gift, not true inventors are just curious people like the rest of us that figured out how to take that idea and get it out of their head. Everyone's an inventor, they just don't know how to use it. It's a skill, it's, it's not a natural talent.

Ryan Rutan: So, let's circle back to something that you said a few minutes ago, well, which is that the aim of these efforts, Right? And in terms of presenting more Children with the knowledge of what entrepreneurship is and the skills and the mindset, um, and, and good examples of, of how entrepreneurship works in the world. The Endgame here is not to turn every kid into a founder, right? We're not trying to make, uh, you know, an an army of, well, maybe an army of founders, but not a full globe of founders. I wouldn't mind an army of founders. I'm just thinking about like, What a wonderful hiring pool that would be at this point if this existed. I wish we had started this 20 years ago, so we'd be hiring these kids that came out of school now, but that said, you know, what we're really talking about here is teaching them that there is a possible path for self advocacy for self agency for self direction and arming them with the knowledge that that is possible, and also a set of hard skills that make it possible, right? Not not just that, Yeah, this is, this is something you can achieve, but also here are some things that will actually let you accomplish that.

Wil Schroter: Do we expect that every kid's being common founder? No, of course not right. It's, it's not for everybody and it doesn't need to be, but I think part of the value and I think there's a lot of points here, but I think part of the value that we can really drive home with every kid that we teach is the fact that you can make your own decisions, you have the freedom to kind of switch gears, you can listen to an objective, but you don't necessarily have to say this is exactly the prescribed path for getting it done. Ryan, we love hiring entrepreneurs because we know that when they run into a problem, their first thought isn't well, let me talk to my boss and be told what to do. Their first thought is, oh yeah, I'll just figure out how to get it done right. But here's the better part. They don't just stop there entrepreneurs. People who, who are used to kind of charting their own destiny. Look for problems that nobody has brought up yet has brought up yet and they actually go forward and try to figure out the problems before they are asked what to do, right? That is that is not something the average person, you know, an average employee, that's how they think. And so getting more people to think with that mentality is incredibly powerful regardless of what they choose to use that information to go start a company. I mean like that's all well and good, but we need people with you no more freedom and flexibility. I'm going

Ryan Rutan: Back to that comment around having an army of founders and I'm thinking that like if we've got roughly 30 million people out there building companies and trying to change the world now, what

Wil Schroter: happens if you shift that

Ryan Rutan: Number to 60 million? Right? To me, it feels like a better, better world. I don't know what do you think?

Wil Schroter: I mean, Holy Cow, right. I mean, you know, one Steve jobs was incredible what happens when we have to. I mean, just what if right

Ryan Rutan: then you have

Wil Schroter: apples, but think about the multiplicity effect. Um, if we actually do have more founders. Again to me, this isn't about driving more founders, but you're going to get more founders. And there's also a really important piece of having more founders in the world. It's not just about having more, you know, variants of the iphones, so to speak, having more founders in the world are about having more passionate people in the world, right? Not people that are just dreading their jobs and hating what they do, but have ownership in what they do, right? You see this in every restaurant that ever gets opened. The owner of that restaurant, she's so passionate about her restaurant. She's not just like, oh yeah, I guess I'm serving food and this is my job now. She cares about every customer, she cares about every plate that goes out the door. She cares about every review that she ever gets. We need a world of people who give a ship about what they do the way founders do. And we had lots of them. I mean, Ryan, as far as I'm concerned, the world already has a ton of board employees. We don't need to make any of those anymore. The world needs more passionate founders.

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