Startup Therapy Podcast

Episode #67

Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan joined as always by Wil schroder startups dot com ceo founder and as we established in the last episode, my friend and that's been true for a lot longer than I've been saying it on the podcast. Just so everyone is well aware will included speaking of amazingly great outcomes, well, you know, big outcomes is one of the things we talked about a lot in the startup space, right? You know, the whole unicorn concept and um, and I know we both have a lot of feels about all of that in if you go back in your history man, like at what point if ever was not aiming big enough, the problem, like, did you ever, like, it's like, gosh, if only I had tried for a bigger outcome, something better would have happened. Was that ever a problem?

Wil Schroter: You know, it's, it's actually the problem, absolute problem. If I look back and you know, in the history of this great teacher had, I aimed for bigger outcomes, I would have missed almost every major opportunity that defined my life and career. Think about that weight, right? You know, after, after having done nine companies, not all successfully by the way, um, every time you get into something, you think it's a, it's a great idea, right? You know, I think hopefully maybe it's a big idea, although I would argue the the, I hope it's a big idea mentality is dangerous and that's probably a lot of what we'll talk about here, It's that uh, this concept of saying it's got to be bigger, it's nothing or the idea isn't big enough, etcetera, is such a fundamentally broken approach that, by the way, not driven by entrepreneurs, it's driven by investors, right? Like entrepreneurs just kind of backed into it over time. Um and where I think more and more founders end up missing, the point is kind of two vectors, right? I think one is they say, well, if it's not big enough, I won't get the attention, I need ergo investors. And it's again, you say, okay, is that really what you're after? You're after investment? Not, you know, building something. Uh and then the second is, well, I'm not going to pursue it at all because it's not big enough, and in either case, I would argue, uh those are both broken fundamentals. Um it should be a good idea that has a real market that might become something big or or change. And morph, we'll talk about this uh into something big, but just saying it has to be big to pursue it all, it just prevents you from making lots of good decisions. And so I think, I think it's worth unpacking today.

Ryan Rutan: That's interesting. So, yes, I mean, so essentially the population there is that by by setting the metric too far out of reach, by setting it so far into the future, so far beyond what you could possibly conceive in this given moment, um that you're, that you're putting yourself into a dangerous spot, right? You will make decisions counter to what would potentially be beneficial at this stage of the business by trying to hypothesize how big it could possibly be when you don't even know if it works small at this point,

Wil Schroter: right, Let's break this down in stages. I think that this isn't just about saying, is this a big company or not? It's about all of the decisions that we may make by saying it has to be big um that prevent us from actually being successful. And I think that's that's the core of this, It's not just saying big is bad, big is not necessarily bad, Big is just an outcome on your on your path to growth, right? Um It would be the equivalent of us saying I want to feel the baseball team and we only hit home runs, it's like the home runs are awesome, but you sort of have to get on base, right? And so for for all of us getting on base is actually a win, right? So for example, let's use let's use to kind of two ideas with two potential outcomes and we'll make them kind of generic, right? And I'm curious your thoughts here ah outcome, one outcome, a let's say is a $3 million business that makes, let's say $500,000 in profit, I was going to say a million, but let's say 500,000 each is a lot of money, right? Um But vastly not considered a big opportunity Option B is a $100 million dollar plus company Making however much I mean at that at that level it could be making anywhere from like $0-$20 million, right?

Ryan Rutan: Could be losing money depending on how well funded you are.

Wil Schroter: Yeah. Yeah. It's you know some huge outcome that could lead to some uh I. P. O. Or or massive wealth event. Let's compare those two. And let's start with uh probability the probability of getting to a $3 million on 500 K. Kind of um exit, so to speak. When I say exit, I just feel like a milestone point at which you can say yes we've achieved something versus $100 million. It's a bit of a straw man argument because it's obviously Getting the $3 million $100 million dollars is dramatically different. Not to mention very few companies fundamentally could even get there. Not every idea can expand that much. Would you agree there? Yeah,

Ryan Rutan: for sure. Yeah. I mean there's some businesses are going to cap out at a certain revenue level. Either, you know, logistically or even just the market size. Um And there's nothing wrong with that, which is what we're talking about today.

Wil Schroter: Let's start with that though. Um If what we're saying is I'm going to evaluate even getting started by what ideas fit under the option B scenario versus the option a scenario here's a whole bunch of places where I think that breaks first is you're assuming that the idea before you've even done anything with it is already the right idea meaning like when we started startups dot com, I had no idea what the company was actually going to be. We just knew that right? That we just wanted to help entrepreneurs and it would sort of kind of become something hopefully right? Ah And and it wound up becoming the company that it is today and we're super proud of it. However, if if we had dismissed the entire thing based on when we knew the least about where the idea could go. Think of what have missed that would have been. Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: No I mean it's like you're talking about these these massive outcomes and like these you know we're aiming for a billion dollars or here's the opportunity at the stage when you're still at the idea level. I mean you're the cocktail napkins still went with the ink, right? He's kind of like talking about how you're going to negotiate your your your child's NFL contract based on theoretical combine scores. That won't happen for at least 22 more years because the kid hasn't even been born yet, right? Like it's ludicrous and yet and this is what we do, right? How often do we hear this? This notion? Like well look that the U. S. Market for X. Is you know $72.6 billion. If we only get 2% like come on man. Like can you, can you can you sell the first customer? Right. Let's not worry about the total size and potential of something that hasn't taken its first step yet.

Wil Schroter: If our idea around idea A. Or option A. Was um we want to build the best real estate agency in columbus Ohio right. And that's a business that could get to $3 million starting off 500 K. Right? And option B is we want to fundamentally build a major level competitors say Remax or one of the other major competitors and it's going to have to be a billion dollar company to do that. You know, scale and what have you um you could look at both of those opportunities and and you can start with one broken argument. You can start with one broken argument that says, well it's going to take the same amount of time to build a small business versus big business. So I might as well just build a big business. Such a consistently dumb argument.

Ryan Rutan: Yes,

Wil Schroter: it takes the same amount of time. But that doesn't mean you're gonna get to the same outcome, right? That's so incredibly assumption.

Ryan Rutan: If we ignore a huge part of the math which is the probability then all things are

Wil Schroter: equal. Right? Yeah.

Ryan Rutan: Absolutely. And that's why only giant companies get built and only giant companies create good outcomes for entrepreneurs, right? Not not even close,

Wil Schroter: yes, it takes the same amount of effort to go to to play college football as it does to eventually get drafted into the NFL, but it doesn't mean you're going to go to the NFL, I don't understand where that argument came from, right? When we're looking at those two opportunities, one of the first things we should be looking at is probability, what is my probability that I'm going to get to an outcome that I give a sh it about and that's let's let's unpack that part, right? If you would, everyone keeps thinking that there's this finality to this journey. In other words, I picked up opportunity a which means it's a $3 million business and I'm just, I guess done. I guess when I hit $3 million I just give up and I start building my business like it doesn't make any sense at startups dot com. When we got to say a million dollars of revenue, I was super psyched about it, right? I was, you know, but I wasn't like, I guess we're done. You know, I guess that's as big as the opportunity is. Um, and so had I, you know, or had we as a team, not me, had we given up, so to speak at that point, you could maybe make the argument that we didn't pick a big enough idea, but if if what we're going to be is the biggest realtor in columbus, Ohio and we actually hit that milestone, Can't we just get bigger. Can't we just expand the scope.

Ryan Rutan: Hello Cleveland? Well maybe not

Wil Schroter: Cleveland. Yeah, let's, let's not go there. But listen, I think, um, when we're evaluating these, these are ideas and then of course, you know, kind of kind of getting behind our ideas, one of the challenges that I consistently see with, with the, with the, the founder thinking is that if it's a small business, you know that I'm somehow, uh locked away to that outcome, right? Let's back up Ryan, think about how many things you've worked on that may not have been like a runaway success, but fundamentally changed your life.

Ryan Rutan: Yeah, most of them,

Wil Schroter: that's what I'm saying, right? And so picture this, you're 22 years old, you have to think way back and you are, you're thinking about starting starting a business And you say I've got this business idea that can maybe generate $1 million dollars and you say I don't want to do it because it doesn't sound big enough. My argument would be, Dude, you're 22 years old, if you get a business to $1 million dollars within the next couple of years, you know, a few people can ever do that.

Ryan Rutan: I just ran into this, I just ran to this into a clarity call like a week and a half ago, uh, this, this young young team, uh, 22 co founders, 11 male, one female. Um, and, and they were asking me, you know, probing questions about what I felt about the market size and, and we were going back and forth and, and looking at some comparable companies and so forth and trying to back into some math and you know, we came up with something like around, you know, eight or nine million top line. It would be, would be a good, good solid. And they were like, yeah, you know, we just feel like this isn't worth 15 million or more. We're not sure we want to get involved with. And I'm like, Hang on a second because they're both really young. I mean like, I think, I think he's like 22 or three and she's 24 or five. And I was asking was like, so what do you think you'll be paying yourself at that rate? Like what do you think you'd be putting in your pocket? What do you think would change financially for you? What are you making now? Right. And they were like, they're making like $55,000 a year. And I'm like, you're telling me an $8 million business wouldn't put you in a better financial position. It wouldn't be worth doing. That's, you know, you're not going to pursue it because because what, like where did you set the arbitrary bar on how big your, your scrooge Mcduck money vault

Wil Schroter: is going to be at the end of this, Like I just don't get it. Well, here here's why because uh often we go in with a broken set of parameters and this is one of the most common things I see among entrepreneurs. We say I need to have this huge outcome, right? Yeah. You know, I need to make $10 million or $100 million. And and the truth is, it's not like if you were set up to make that much money, that the only reason you didn't is because you set your sights

Ryan Rutan: too low, right?

Wil Schroter: I don't know a single person that's made and I know a lot of people that have made that much money. I don't know a single person that have made that much money that only made it because they refused to make any other amount of money, right? Like dude, if it were only that easy, right? Uh If only you could just select what you wanted. And because you selected it to happen.

Ryan Rutan: Also like who who, who doesn't end up getting the money right? It's not like, Oh I said I was going to make 80 million in this business. I made 100 million. And so now the This this government body that doesn't exist, gonna come and take that other 20 that I didn't declare I wanted to make away from you. It's no longer mine, right? You still get to keep it if you exceed your goals. No problem.

Wil Schroter: Right, Well here's the thing though, if I were starting from scratch and I would just say, okay, what are my progressive goals? So this is where people get messed up. They say my goal is I need to make $100 million and live off that. And here's the list of things that I can buy with that money that the math is so broken. Um what they're missing is that's not the way life works. You don't just set one goal and you kind of hang out until you hit that one goal. It's just it's not all the way it works. The way it works is you set a near term goal, that is your next milestone, You optimize all of life to get to that milestone. And then if you are so rare and fortunate to get to that milestone, crazy idea, you set another one,

Ryan Rutan: wait a second, we get to pick more than once. This isn't, this isn't like the price is right, I just get to I have to pick one door and whatever prizes behind that door, That's that's the max of my winnings, I

Wil Schroter: got into this backward, I came into life with my expectations so ridiculously low that if I hit anything, like if I could feed myself, I was, I thought I was making a billion dollars, right? But but inadvertently by having such low expectations, it forced me to have very near term milestones that I put all of my effort into hitting, and then lo and behold when I hit those milestones when I could actually eat, I wasn't like, oh, well I can eat now. So I guess it's you, I guess we're all done here, right? I said, OK, well, if I've made it to that level, how do I get to the next level? But what I learned over time, and we certainly incorporated this into how we build our company, um set a very achievable milestone, you know, ambitious but achievable and actually hit it again. I always use the diet analogy, it's the person who says, I want to lose £40 who cares if you want to lose £40 can you lose one? Can

Ryan Rutan: you lose one? I love to quote my dad and I've probably already said this in the podcast at least once, but his, his analogy for this was it's fine to aim for the moon is like, but tell me how you're going to clear the fence, make sure you're clear the fence right? It's it's all well and good to aim for the moon. But if you can't clear the fence, you're not getting to the moon. So, you know, make sure that your, your set up and structured in a way that you can achieve the short term goals, make sure that you have short term goals and make sure you understand how those stack up into the long term ones. Um, and that's where I think that's where most founders fall short, they have some idea of this, um, you know, ephemeral prize that exists somewhere in a, in a distant future. Um, but they're not real clear, um, on, on what the milestones that will actually get them there are, nor they're willing to accept that even achieving those is a huge win in of itself, right? That this isn't a zero sum game at which the end, you know, the winner takes all. Um, there's a lot of winning and we're losing depending on how it comes out, um, along the way. Right? It's, it's a full on journey with plenty to be enjoyed along the way. If you allow yourself to

Wil Schroter: actually let me build on that for a minute because um, what I, what I really want to have folks understand is that if you, if you can say, hey, uh, in this business, you know, we got into a million dollar stores off $200,000 of revenue, um, wasn't the runaway hit that people talk about, but let's talk about what it was, that business will allow us to go do something else if we choose, more importantly to not have to do something else if we choose. I don't think people think about that whatsoever. It gave us the experience to understand how to get to that level, to understand how to get two more. Um, and it gave us something, you know, from a reputation and resume standpoint to build from. So if we want to go do another one, we've got some credibility to say that we even did it, here's what most likely happens most people, most entrepreneurs who kind of do this poorly, they string together a long history of total misses, right? And and they talked about how the next idea has to be bigger. It's like if you never got to first base, why do you keep talking about home runs? Right dude, just get to first base

Ryan Rutan: bunt, just bunch, just advance somebody else on the base, sacrifice yourself for God's sake.

Wil Schroter: Well there's a few things so the first is uh, if I'm so fortunate and I have to reference this is about being fortunate to get to a business that says it's at a million bucks thrown off 200 K. The reality is if I can never get to 400 K. 600 K. A million, whatever your, your imaginary threshold is. So what? Right I get and I'm not being dismissive here like you know, I'm I'm I'm all about cash, but I'm also saying you can't undersell how important it is to hit one of those milestones and you know, for for every entrepreneur that's out there that's you're looking at another entrepreneur saying, oh it could be bigger, it could be better, whatever remember that At some of those thresholds, you're 90% optimized for what you need cash for anyway, right? You know, once you bought car house, et cetera, there's not that much more that you need that having made this horrible $200,000 decision um, is messing you up. I don't even know where people get this idea like that, but there's some sort of um, you know, limbo that entrepreneurs are stuck in, that they didn't make enough money to get to see that actually happened.

Ryan Rutan: I can't think of a single example, right? Where it's like, you know, you're, you've, you've achieved, as you said, there's like some, some minimum bars that you cross and like once you've hit those thresholds and you have the, let's go beyond basics, right? So like it's, you know, you get the house of the cars, um, you know, you're, you've got a stable business that's, that's throwing off continuous cash for you and you can continue to go to that. Well, uh, what exactly is the problem there? Right. And, and we've even created some pejorative terms to describe some of these things, right? Oh, it's a lifestyle business right here. Yeah, Well, I've got a startup, you know, my, my friend eric, you know, he's got this lifestyle business that it gives him a way better lifestyle than I have with my startup, but I'm gonna, we, we talk about it like it's a problem, right? He's got a lifestyle business, right, Poor guy is stuck in a fantastic lifestyle. Oh God, I, I pity him. Right? I don't know where, I don't know where the notion came

Wil Schroter: from. My favorite Ryan is Vcs that call it a lifestyle business. I'm like, hold on, whoa, back up, You guys raise 100 million

Ryan Rutan: dollars.

Wil Schroter: You guys are in the ultimate lifestyle business, right? Like, um, you guys raised $100 million you're on the hook for 7 to 10 years at a fixed revenue rate off of that $100 million. Maybe you raise another fund. Maybe you don't, isn't that a lifestyle business? And by the way, what's the probability you're in the top quartile of VCS that I'll ever see a check, you know, a distribution at the end of this, probably zero. Um, you're kind of unless you're Mark Andrews and you're kind of in no position to be talking about lifestyle businesses being in the ultimate lifestyle business as it is. I mean, it's but but actually, let's stick with that. Let's I don't ever want to vilify investors because they are a critical part of the startup ecosystem, but I do want to put it in perspective where some of these bullshit narratives come from, right? The idea that I have to have a huge business is entirely driven by investors, okay, And you'll find tons of other content that that we've written or talked about, which says that, look, if you're going to raise money, you need to have a huge total addressable market a huge tam. You have to, that's the whole point. If you're going to go to investors, that's not the same as saying you're supposed to have a big market or you shouldn't start a business. That's, that's idiotic. And so I think over time, uh, startup lower the startup narrative, Ryan has changed so that it's no longer just about uh, being successful. You know, making a profitable business, it now has to be a giant business to somehow have some sense for validation. And I just don't see who that's, that's beneficial for at all other than investors. Maybe

Ryan Rutan: you're right. I mean at this point the narrative is driving, uh, the, the actions, right? And so people have bought into this concept now that it has to be big to be successful and then that dictates a particular path. Um the tail is absolutely wagging the dog in this case and, and quite unnecessarily, so people are out trying to figure out how they can get funding for businesses that probably don't need it so that it can be bigger than it could ever possibly be, so therefore it's not going to get funding anyway. So that's the other thing, we see people keep running into these hurdles and it's like, well we can't, we just can't seem to raise for this. The tam is not big enough times. Well then stop trying to raise money

Wil Schroter: for it or don't torture that. Yeah, don't torture the business into something that's not,

Ryan Rutan: don't torture it. Don't torture it into something that's not right. If if the tam isn't big enough to justify funding, you probably also don't need the funding to do a good job in that market. You can probably build a really good healthy business bootstrapping and just doing it the way that businesses were built for a long time. I guess the thing we forget is that like these crazy funding rounds and, and the amount of third party capital plowed into businesses didn't always exist. In fact, a lot of the very big businesses that, that we now associated, these huge successful companies came up at a time where that wasn't possible. They didn't have the same level of, of, you know, equity available to them. Um, and they still managed to build these massive blue chip companies, right? It's possible. Is it, is it the same thing? Is it as fast as it is easy? I don't know, we never will,

Wil Schroter: if you drive down your main street and look at every restaurant or retail store, um, they probably didn't get there with Angel and venture funding to begin with, you know, some of them as they scale they have private equity and things like that, different Ballgame. Um, but yeah, the truth is, 99% of businesses aren't taking on venture funding that said wherever you are in your career, and I don't think it matters if you're earlier in your career later in your career, What you should be most concerned about, what we should all be most concerned about is will it work? Will it, will this thing actually work? Forget how big it might be. What's the, what's the highest probability that what I'm about to sink my cash, my time, my effort and everything into will actually work. Work being, it's going to be, it's going to turn a profit just to be clear. Uh work isn't that we can acquire lots of users with no revenue. Uh work is do I have a viable business that

Ryan Rutan: doesn't count

Wil Schroter: anymore? No lack of dead bodies there? But I guess my point is um, let's go back to the base hit concept or the get on base. Uh first concept, if all you do is swing for home runs and never get on base, You'll always lose right every now and then again, somebody, you know, becomes fortunate and they hit the right thing at the right time. But it's such a broken mechanic that we just see so many people going down in flames because they set themselves up for abject failure,

Ryan Rutan: they put themselves into a binary condition of like maybe this massive outcome with a really tiny probability or total failure with a massive probability. And like they put themselves on that path. Um Arbitrarily correct by choice. They decided to do that and it's not necessary.

Wil Schroter: Right? And so so take our business, for example, you know, uh it's not fair to say that we bootstrapped the business because we had our own capital to fund the business, right? It's not quite the same thing, like, people think of bootstrapping as you've got, you know, $5000 in the bank and you grow it up from there and we had millions of dollars to, to work with, so to speak. Um, and so that said, uh, we've grown the business without taking on venture capital. And if we wanted to make it bigger, we have so many options available. That's the funny thing, like, if all we want to do is scale the business, I could return the calls of 50 private equity companies or VCS right now, and we could go scale a business. And I'm not saying that like, because we're something special, anybody can, you know, that that gets to this level, right? Uh, it's not, it's not unique to how bigger ideas. In fact, if you get to this level without having to raise capital, and I don't want to make this purely about raising capital, you have even more options, because there's so many other ways you can get it done. But, but that's not really my point. My point is if, if what we're trying to do in those formative stages when picking the idea when picking the market, and, you know, picking our path, which also, by the way, often includes whether we raise money or not, um, is purely based on the biggest possible outcome. And if that biggest possible outcome also comes at the cost of the lowest possible probability. It doesn't always, but just to be clear, um, it's broken, it's a dumb idea or so it's a dumb initial path. I would say, what does that idea look like to get to first base? I'll make up an example, let's say that Ryan, you and I were beating up the idea to do Airbnb, I would argue there's, there's two very different paths for how we get started there. One is the idea is huge. It's a billion dollar business. Um, and we need to fund the hell out of its kind of, you know, to, to realize that goal in a speedy way. And obviously that happened, right. So this is, you know, I'm trying to use it in the extreme. The other could be, you know, really, Airbnb at the end of the day is a localized business. Um, people in certain areas are, are, are, you know, renting their homes, et cetera. And so if we focused on the demand for housing and vacationing, let's say in certain areas first, and then built it out more organically, we could probably bootstrap it would only take a few of us to do it. Um, it will take a little more time, like business has been built for hundreds of years, but we can also probably get that done too. Here would be my argument in Ryan, I'm, I'm very interested to hear yours. My argument would be the business is a good idea whether it's big or small, let's go after whichever one we think has a higher probability of actually turning into something that's valuable to us. Does that make sense? Of course? How would you evaluate it?

Ryan Rutan: Well, yeah, in the same way, I mean it's still you still to your to the to the, to the diet analogy, right? You can't lose the 40th pound until you've lost the 39 38 37th. Right? And so it has to work. Right? And, and again, if it doesn't work at a small scale, there are very, very few businesses outside of like large manufacturing plays and things like that where ubiquity is necessary to, to make something work right? Like there's a, there's a reason you don't see like cell phone companies popping up on a per zip code basis because the infrastructure required to do it doesn't make sense. Very, very few, very few businesses that work in that way. And, and the rest of them, you know, can be, can be started as small as we look. Chesky started by by first the market was an extra couch they had in their apartment, right? That's pretty localized. We built a business

Wil Schroter: around what

Ryan Rutan: our tam is. My couch, it's three cushions. My tam is three cushions currently, right? And again it already existed to, that was the other thing, I mean, like, you know, craigslist was already allowing couch surfing and you know, subletting and all that stuff. So you know what they did was come in and say, hey, let's see if we can make this work on a separate platform. Um, and, and then let's work to scale it, right? But it worked first, both by proxy by seeing it work on craigslist and, and you know, word of mouth and wherever else people were doing couchsurfing, um, and you know, fractional usage of homes or full usage of homes. Um, so there was already working by proxy and then they then they continued to make it work. Um, you know, starting out locally, we talked to so many entrepreneurs every year and it's, it's a conversation I have over and over and over again, where somebody's trying to figure out how to roll out to every market in the entire ever markets available to them at the same time. And I'm like, guys pick one market, make it work. They're like, why do you think this has to happen nationwide or worldwide? All at once, make it work in a microcosm and then make it work elsewhere, right? Because if it won't work there, it's not gonna work

Wil Schroter: globally. Absolutely into your point. Some ideas have to have scale. In other words, the idea itself doesn't work unless maybe you have a two sided marketplace that has to have enough scale and maybe Airbnb needed to be that maybe that needed to be funding are funded. But my, my point is this, if you're evaluating the idea by saying the only way I'm going to optimize my approach here is a billion dollars or bust, think of how many, how unlikely it is that you'll ever get to that outcome right? And look as founders, we don't have that many shots on goal, right. If we're fortunate enough to start, let's say in our early twenties and we get to start a couple more businesses along the way, awesome. But as we get a little bit older, late twenties, early thirties, etcetera, we have fewer and fewer opportunities to be able to swing like this. Now one school of thought is going to be well. If you only have a few opportunities better go for the biggest opportunity possible to which I say funk that I was like, if I only have one opportunity, I want the most probable opportunity possible, I can always figure out how to make it bigger later. That's actually a really easy problem to figure out what I can't do is unwind spending seven years chasing some giant tam because some investor told me to and wind up with nothing. Nothing is the worst outcome. Not a big enough tam.

Ryan Rutan: That's a wrap for this episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan on behalf of my partner Wil Schroder and all the startups. Dot com family thanking you for joining us and we hope you'll continue to join us. Be sure to subscribe, rate and comment on ITunes or wherever you love to listen to startup therapy. You can find all of our episodes at startups dot com slash podcast. If you're looking for more amazing resources to launch or grow your startup, be sure to head to startups dot com and check out startups unlimited. It's everything we have to offer from our online university to our amazing community of experts and founders and even all the tools we've built like biz plan, fungible and launch rock. It's everything a founder needs visit startups dot com slash begin that startups dot com slash b E G I N. You'll thank me later.

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