Ryan Rutan: Welcome back to another episode of the startup therapy podcast. This is Ryan Rutan from startups dot com joined by Wil Schroder, my friend, the founder and Ceo of startups dot com will startups are all about growing as fast and as furiously as possible, right?
Wil Schroter: They are not, they are all about crashing as fast and furiously as possible. If we don't actually know where we're supposed to be spending our time and more importantly our money. And I think today we can kind of dispel this myth of, let's build everything fast and actually build a case for growing slowly. And I know it's gonna sound heretical like people are gonna be like what? You know, this is absurd. Yeah, but I think if we unpack it enough people are gonna make you know what that kind of makes sense. Like even if I'm planning on building this, you know, next facebook, there probably is a pace at which I should be going in order to make good decisions and I think at its core we should be talking about growing at a pace that allows us to make good decisions. All right. So before we get into this next topic, I just want to let you know what we talk about here is like 1% of the conversation, you know, really, this conversation is going on all day long online at groups dot startups dot com Where Ryan and I pretty much talk endlessly with founders about every one of these topics. So if by the end of this discussion, you like the topic and you want to dig into it a little bit more with Ryan and I just had two groups dot startups dot com and we'll pick it up from there. Yeah,
Ryan Rutan: Pace is a word that you're going to hear a whole lot today. So if that triggers you probably skip the next episode. Um, yeah, because this is that's, that's today's episode all about pace and all about how it impacts several different aspects of the business. Well, um, what do you think is the, you know, let's start first with like why do we feel like we have to grow them so fast? Because I think let's start with that, that
Wil Schroter: that inner drive
Ryan Rutan: that says we have to do this so that we, we start from that emotional center point of like why it is that we feel this way in the first place and then try to find the end of that thread and unravel it from there.
Wil Schroter: I think we're excited. We're optimistic. We haven't broken anything yet. Right? And so at this, at this point, right? You know, we're the kid on the playground that's just running to every single, you know, jungle gym peace and being like, oh my God, what could possibly happen if I fall off here? That is
Ryan Rutan: Jack right now. It's
Wil Schroter: both of our boys. And it's it's it's this magical moment. It's great in a lot of ways, but it's dangerous as hell, right? No different than our boys, right? I think at the early stages where we haven't burned ourselves yet, where we haven't fallen off, you know, the metaphorical jungle gym yet. Um, we think we've got this idea, A couple of people said they want to buy it. It must be proven. Now all we have to do is just kind of add gas to it. And that's, that's where we kill ourselves, right? Only only
Ryan Rutan: good things have happened and they're not very big, good things, but like nothing has gone wrong yet. And a couple of good things have happened. And so of course we go back and we change our financial projections to show that those things will continue to just go on forever and ever and ever and grow. Um, without very much effort. All we have to do is just do more of it and do it faster. Right?
Wil Schroter: Well, we don't know any better. That's the problem. If it's our first startup. Typically we're looking at, this is all we know, this is all the data we have. You know, we told five people, they said it was awesome, right? We ran some google ads against our, our, our landing page and, and people said good things. You know, we put it on a couple of social sites and people said good things. This must mean something, right? So let's hit the gas. And I think that's part of it. I think the other part of it, that kind of throws us is we have this general narrative within the startup world that startups grow big and fast. And so its venture capital acceleration, it's it's this idea that, you know, we're gonna hire a ton of people and get big, etcetera. And there's a time and a place for that, don't get me wrong, you know, this is an anti growth or anti speed, It's anti growth, anti speed before you figure it out exactly what you should be growing and guess what? It takes a minute. It takes about a minute. And people tend to get that
Ryan Rutan: now if you've just, you know, if you've seen the, you know, they ship all the new cars now completely wrapped in plastic, right? Like they're they've got this protective covering a role. I mean, it's it's analogous to jumping in the car, turning it on, figuring out how to put it in gear and going, hey, everything's going really well so far, but before peeling the sticker off the windshield, stomping on the accelerator, right? You don't yet know what, you don't know and you're not quite sure where you're headed yet, but you're about to start to go really fast. This is where the danger ensues. And to your point, you just can't see it, right? You don't know and you don't know what all those pitfalls are and you know, the the reality is that, yes, we're super excited in the beginning. And yes, there's there's things happening, um, and it can seem very high pace inside the startup, but anybody looking at from the outside, I mean the things, the things move glacially at the beginning, right? It's, it's a series of these tiny little things. They're, they're big lifts internally, right? Like, you know, getting the site live, you know, figuring out our branding, hiring a couple of people, all that stuff. Um, there's huge lifts on the inside and maybe they go well. And so then we again, we have this game, we play where we extrapolate that into the future where all I have to do is copy paste and it always works the same every time ever after. And that's just not true. And again, this is where it gets dangerous depending on the pace.
Wil Schroter: Well, let's talk about that. I want to stick with the car analogy. The analogy I would use the analogy I would use here is imagine you're behind the wheel of your car and you're following the center line of the, of the road and at first it feels like if you just hit the gas, you'll just get to your destination faster. But what you don't realize is that your 5° off the center line to the left and all you're going to end up doing is running off the road much faster. But because you stopped on clearing
Ryan Rutan: somebody's forest for them. Exactly,
Wil Schroter: right. You don't have the sense for the fact that you're off course because all you're trying to do is accelerate a broken assumption, which is that I'm on course and I think this is, this happens all the time to us because we don't give ourselves enough time to start to say, hey, this thing's starting to veer off to the left, like I don't, I don't think we should continue this course, time
Ryan Rutan: is an important part of this, but I want to circle back around to that because I think, I think that deserves its its own attention in today's episode. I think we really need to talk about like how time factors into this obviously pace and time are inextricably linked, but let's talk about like why this acceleration, this early acceleration you're talking about really amplifies that mistake and the analogy uses a perfect one, right? Because if you start off five degrees at the beginning, the longer you go or the faster you go, the further you end up from that, midline, faster, right? And all of a sudden you are, you are, you are miles away from where you intended to go. Um, and we see it all the time where then founders end up in this place where they're like, this is not what I intended, this is not what I was trying to do and then a couple of things happen, we have to do the classic, you know, pivot, which is really just a nice way of saying, I made a wrong turn at Albuquerque. Um, and now I got to loop back around and this is gonna take me lots of time and money or uh you know, worst case scenario, we see people just fold because of this. They're like, we're so far off course, we don't have the money, the energy, the emotional fortitude to go back to that point where we got off course and go again. And and that always makes me super sad because it's so often linked to this exacerbation of the error, simply due to acceleration. Right? That kills me because you and I can both look at that in hindsight and go, man, if they had gone a little slower, this probably wouldn't have happened or they would of course corrected way sooner.
Wil Schroter: I think what happens is um initially we have our idea for our business, whatever it is and let's just say that early on, our conversion rates look good. So we're sending people to our website or whatever your business is, Your conversion rates look good. Right, okay, cool, we're spending some money in google, we're sending some people to our landing page conversion rates look good. Cool. Like we proved that one. Right. Um from there, the number of people that bought are buying it an average order value. That's wonderful. Right, It's exactly where we want to be. Also awesome. Right? So so we're good on average order value. Next thing they actually recur they come back and buy whether it's a subscription based business or whether it's just them coming back and buying more
Ryan Rutan: life is beautiful, right?
Wil Schroter: So we're good. Right? No, here's the thing. The assumption that we're missing is the factor of time. Will they keep doing it? Let me tell you. All right. If someone has done it for two months, you haven't proven shit
Ryan Rutan: like a
Wil Schroter: Year, two years is proving an assumption, proving an assumption in the context of a month or two. Just means you got lucky. Now the difference, you know, luck and fortune and and and actual planning is a factor of time. You go to the casino and you bet, you know all your money and it works, you're luck, you're lucky, right? But if you go back to the casino and you keep doing this for a period of two years, you're just good at this point. Which you know, you're actually you've got a repeatable process.
Ryan Rutan: I only play the slots so this doesn't really apply. Yeah. No, I know
Wil Schroter: you're screwed either way. Um But I think that when we consider that the folks that are that are looking at these assumptions don't understand the factor of time, they're hitting the gas right away. Right? And there's there there figuring out, okay, well if it works this well now it'll work 10 X better with say 10 X more money or more resources. Not really. We gotta take our time and that's that's one of the most rookie mistakes we make early on
Ryan Rutan: it sure is, you know, and I think that part of that was built around this fail fast narrative, people misinterpreted what that meant, right, Right? That meant make your mistakes and and make them quickly. It doesn't mean go fast. So you can make mistakes, right? Because then you're forcing the function. The idea isn't to make mistakes, right? It's not that we want to fail. Um, it's that we want to test the assumptions as early on as we can, but at an appropriate pace where we learn from those and we can move forward, we can make those adjustments right. If there's gonna be some binary point at which the businesses that go or a no go good to get there sooner than later. But it doesn't mean go really fast so that you can bust through a whole bunch of mistakes because here's the reality, If you start to go too fast, you will just start to make mistakes, you will make mistakes, you otherwise wouldn't have made because you're not giving yourself the time to understand the full context of what's going on, right? Things are moving past back to the car analogy there, flying past. So so so fast, you can't even read the exit signs at this point, you don't know where you were supposed to turn, you don't know enough about what's happening to be able to correctly control and course correct and this is why and and again, like you said like it's going to sound heretical, but like you got to pump the brakes a little bit and be okay with being slow. Yes, fail fast meaning like get through the failures and then move on. But this doesn't mean go really fast so that you can fail right? Nobody intended anybody to take that message away from it. And yet that's the interpretation that often gets fed back to me. Like look Ryan, we were just raised funds. Uh, we're gonna dump a bunch of money into these campaigns. Like wait, the ones that we just talked about, you told me aren't performing. Yeah, we just need to fail fast here.
Wil Schroter: You read that
Ryan Rutan: wrong. It's not what they meant.
Wil Schroter: I think the best deals you do are the ones you didn't do right?
Ryan Rutan: I mean
Wil Schroter: we have such a long history even at startups dot com of having so many opportunities presented to us in so many different ways. It could have been people we could have hired could have been campaigns, we could have done cos we could have bought industries or products we could have built and got into and time and time again. The one thing we did really well and very consistently was we pump the brakes and we said, you know what, let's just give it a second, right? Just because everybody's running toward that. Let's just give it a second and make sure that that's actually where we want to head and that has saved us so many, so many, so many bad decisions. And yet, as founders, we don't do that very well. We don't, we don't pump the brakes very well to say, look, it's not that we don't wanna be aggressive and go after deals. We just don't want to be running into the burning building only to find out it's collapsing as we step in, Right? It's really dangerous.
Ryan Rutan: It is, it is. And, and to your point, I think, you know, we've, we've said no to so much more than we've said yes to, and it's not that we haven't said yes to a lot. I mean, when you look at what we've done the number of acquisitions, the products, we've built the brands, we've built a lot has happened. Um, but the number of things we said no to is exponentially higher than that. I mean, had we said yes to everything, you would walk into something that looks like a Costco right? It would be, we've got a lot already, but the amount of overwhelmed that would exist, had we said yes to everything, um, would be insane. Said differently, We wouldn't have made it this far right. We would have become so fractionalized, we have become so confused. Um, all of the analysis would have become so multi variant that we would have had no way of really understanding what was working and what isn't right. And I think that's another and it's it's not exactly the same thing as going fast. Um, but it's an aspect of it and that's when you start to do too many things at the same time, because you can basically look at that is like, okay, each of these things is only moving at 50 miles an hour, but we're doing 10 of them collectively, you're moving 500 miles an hour, right? That becomes the same kind of problem, right? And and because you don't have, again, at this point in the episode, we're talking about time, we're talking about giving yourself the time to understand when you start to throw too many things at the wall, you don't have the time to fully understand what the impact of those things was, How they interrelated, Did they, did they, you know, improve things, Did they move things sideways or did did some of it fail? Are we obscuring failure? Are we obscuring success? Right. One of the other things that happens when you start to move too fast. And I've definitely talked about this recently and I keep seeing this over and over again. Um, I have probably talked in the last two months, 100 founders around getting their marketing, um, ships straightened out right through our founders groups. I've had so many people reach out and done a ton of one on ones and we keep coming back to this, the single narrative around the speed at which they're testing marketing channels and the speed at which they're, they're letting them go and they're getting false negatives, they're moving too fast in each channel and then they're unable because they're not giving themselves enough time to make the right decision about that channel and they're moving on and moving on and moving on and they're looking for the one that just happens to work like a flash fire right from the beginning. I can tell you that doesn't happen very often. I've been trying for a very long time to find it, um, doesn't exist, right? They take time, they take cultivation, they take effort. Um, and when you're moving 100 miles an hour and jumping from channel to channel to channel, um, it's like changing lanes really fast and assume you're gonna get somewhere sooner, just doesn't, doesn't really change anything. Right? So I think again, there's so many places, this applies, this is the one that I'm seeing a lot right now, is that people just aren't giving themselves the time to fully see things through. And that's a huge danger. And again, exacerbated and, and made exponentially worse if you're doing this fast,
Wil Schroter: you know, by the way, I just want to mention if what we're talking about today sounds like the kind of discussion you wish you were having more often, you actually can, you know, we're online all day every day working through exactly these types of topics with founders, just like you, So any question you would have or maybe some problem you just want to work through, we're here and we love this stuff and we're easy to find, you know, head over to groups dot startups dot com. And let's just start talking, right? Look early in my career, I've been at this for about 30 years.
Ryan Rutan: Shut
Wil Schroter: up
Ryan Rutan: early my career.
Wil Schroter: I thought the way it worked was I tried to make good decisions and then I doubled down and I accelerate those decisions and that's where I got screwed because I kept thinking that as the Ceo, as the leader would have you that, that my job was to make good decisions. What I didn't realize is I can't make good decisions. All I can do is make a series of bets and find out which ones become the good decisions. Big, big difference. Now I look at it very differently. I just make bets and we talked about this all the time. No idea if they're going to work or not, right? We're gonna try this. We're gonna try this. We're gonna try this. I know because statistically they're probably going to be wrong. Doesn't necessarily mean I'm bad at my job. It's because that's the nature of a bet. You don't know how it's going to turn out, right? So what I need is just a little bit of time, a little bit of time to figure out if the bet that I made was a good bet now if I ignore that, if I completely say you know what of course it's a good bet, I'm a genius right here. It's going to happen. Just like you said I'm going to accelerate my failure. I'm gonna make bets that are unproven that I didn't give time to give me feedback to figure out if I should double down on them all I'm gonna do is just get to a failure point faster by the way with as few resources as I could possibly have.
Ryan Rutan: That's the real issue at that early stage. These things are you you don't have the ability to place a lot of bets right? Because you just got such limited resources. So being clear on the bets and making sure that you're following through on them I. E. Not racing from bet Tibet Tibet without kind of following through and making sure that you've done everything you can with each one of those bets And understanding why they didn't work before you move onto the next one is so damn important right? You're in a position in time where you're going to have the least resources, the least resiliency that your company is ever going to have. Its in its most fragile state and yet we're gonna treat it like a rocket ship right? Not a great combination.
Wil Schroter: Yeah. I think one of the one of the examples though is when we make a bet it's actually the right bet. But for whatever reason we architected it wrong. A good example is staffing right? Let's say that you hire a salesperson to help lead your new efforts for your enterprise sales, right? And that person they go out there, they pitch everybody in the way you thought with the product that you thought and it doesn't work out now. Your assumption is that sales doesn't work for for what I'm doing. I'm going to have to do online acquisition etcetera. But what if crazy thought what if it was the wrong salesperson? So you replaced them with a new salesperson that sales person comes in. They also suck and you're like look man, I made this bet. I I thought like direct sales was going to work. It didn't work, you know on to the next one. What if you missed on a few different things. What if you missed on the fact that the sales cycles were longer than you thought they were. A year long sales cycles, you know, not month long sales cycles. What if the person we hired happens all the time? It's just bad at it. A lot of these assumptions, not only take time they take multiple shots for us to get to, right? We need to say, look I think sales is going to work but here's how I'm going to do it. I'm going to hire up to three different salespeople. Maybe sequential because I don't have a lot of cash and I'm gonna test and I'm gonna find out whether or not sales works. What I'm not going to do is hire one person one time and base my entire strategy based on how they work out. I'm gonna give myself enough time to do a couple of different variants of the bet to find out what works. People screw this up all the time because they assume that the whatever the bet was that I made and the way that I met made it in the resources that I had at the time is the only way to prove the best and the truth is for a lot of stuff. You just need the right combination to actually make that work, whether it's your product development, the people you're hiring, etcetera. And I think we overlooked that all the time.
Ryan Rutan: I mean, look, you get three strikes in baseball, arguably the slowest sport in the world, right? So if you get three strikes in baseball, the idea that you're going to get everything right on the first try in a startup is pretty ludicrous.
Wil Schroter: I think part of the challenges, we don't give ourselves enough time as founders in the company to let all our bets play out what what what we do is we just started yesterday, Right? And so Ryan you and I are just trying to fire through this thing as fast as possible. Maybe we got accepted to an accelerator and incubator and they were saying we've got three months to make all the bets work. That's a ridiculous compressed amount of time. You can't make anything work in three months, right? You can build something, but that has nothing to do with making enough bets and seeing the maturation of your business model through, which is why most of these things fail after three months. What we want to be able to do is say, look, I have to make lots and lots and lots of bets, Most of them will fail. But what I need is time, time could be a year, could be two years. I need enough time to play some of these things out so that I've got enough history with the ones that worked to know it's repeatable. And I think when we take time out, we screw ourselves.
Ryan Rutan: We do, we do. Because that repeatability that becomes so important, right? And I think that the go back to when we talked about right at the very top of the episode, which is that, you know, we're excited, We're enthusiastic, especially when we start to see some of our bets play out right? Like there's certain things that don't really require any any luck or skill to have happen, right? Like getting your website okay. Yeah, takes some skill. Obviously, you gotta have a developer, you gotta you gotta know what you're doing, but like getting the website built isn't like it isn't a bet, right? That's just work that you do and then it's done. Um, you know, figuring out what that first marketing channel is, figuring out who that first sales hire is, who that first, you know, uh, you know, product lead is those are bets, right? And, and when we see one of those play out, the excitement can get dialed up really quick, right? Like I am the best at this ever. I'm going to go do a whole bunch more of this. Um, and it's that repeatability piece that we, we get caught up in, um, and get trapped in because it is just not the case, right? It is not the case that simply because it worked once or worked at a certain size, um, that it's going to continue to work forever and ever and ever. Um, if that was the case, then scale would be easy. You would simply have to figure out what worked and then just always do more of that, right? Almost everything in your startup is going to have at least plateaus, if not hard ceilings, right? Where there's where tactics or strategy is going to have to change when you get to a certain point, right? And if you're moving too fast, you'll miss that, right. You know, we've done this, I've done this, I've run right past an acceptable cost per lead because the cost per lead was working really well, keep adding gas to the fire, keep adding gas to the fire, keep adding gas to the fire and then all of a sudden that cost and that cost per lead. The spending, the cost per lead start to split apart, right? You're accelerating that spend too fast. You won't notice it soon enough to, to save yourself the money that you've now wasted simply by buying more and more and more expensive leads. Right? And, and there's, this is just one example of, of thousands where by not giving ourselves that time and assuming that what works at a certain level will just continue to scale off into the future, uh, really bites us hard. Right? And so, you know, you've got to give yourself the time, you've got to keep revisiting these things and and not just assume that they will automatically be rinse and repeatable. Um, you know, marketing is one of the places we see this happen, hiring is certainly one of the places where we see this happening. Um, because, you know, we had, you know, one developer and we can move at this pace. So we had to developers and now we're moving twice as fast. Um, so if we had a third developer will move three times as fast, except we forgot about the part where the inefficiency starts to get introduced because of the size of the team right now, that's not a hard stop, but it's a change in the curve, right? And we have to be moving at a speed where we can see these changes in the curve and we can react to them otherwise we end up digging ourselves into really big and hard to climb out of holes.
Wil Schroter: I agree. And what we don't realize is that all the time that we end up wasting is a lot of money, right?
Ryan Rutan: Because we're ripping through cash often our own
Wil Schroter: during that time right? And it's okay if we happen to make the right bet and you know and the money is going to win in Creative Source but we usually don't write, all we end up doing is ripping through more cash on these broken assumptions. I see this all the time with startups that are getting there early stage funding. They're like you know I need a ton of money in order to increase marketing based on our M. V. P. And I'm like dude it takes like 2-3 years to get your MVP right right? Like nobody goes in out of the gates with exactly what product they're supposed to build. It just doesn't work that way right now we go in
Ryan Rutan: we're
Wil Schroter: right with a concept of where we should be also by the way usually wrong and we need some time right to get a whole bunch of data so that we can start to shape it to get the pricing right to get the marketing strategy right to get the team right right? All of these things just take a little bit of time for us to figure out the worst thing we can do. And I think that's the crux of it. The worst thing we can do is three months into our idea, load up on capitol, give up a bunch of equity so that we can accelerate all of our bad bets. And the worst part is we don't know they're bad bets yet. We don't,
Ryan Rutan: it's so painful. Oh Man. I mean, how many of these post mortems have we read write like it and it's, and it's often a huge part of that narrative, right? Which is that we accelerated the time where we thought we knew what we were doing. Um, and it turns out that we didn't write, we accelerated right off the cliff. Um, you know, and, and that's, that's one scenario. The other scenarios even without capital, right. You talked about time being money like we're, we're burning cash. Um, regardless of the source burning cash hurts. But there's another side to that when we continue to double down and accelerate on the wrong bets. There's also the opportunity cost of the fact that we haven't gotten to the right bet yet. And that hurts just as much and sometimes more if you're working with. And this is probably more for the funded startups than than the unfunded. It depends on how you know what, what your, what your, your runway looks like. But let's assume you're working with a finite runway. Let's assume you've gotta burn rate that will eventually outstrip your ability to maintain it. And you've got a hard stop at some point, right? Where you gotta raise more cash or something else has to change. You gotta make big bad decisions. Like cutting most of the team or whatever. We've gone through these disaster scenarios in other episodes. You can go check those out. But in the time in which you've got this finite point in the future and you're burning that cash, you're accelerating towards that point. And you're also not making the bets that will ultimately be the correct ones. Because you're doubling down and accelerating on the wrong ones. You're essentially signing your death warrant at that point, right? So the opportunity cost cannot be forgotten either. Right? There is the actual cash cost, which sometimes, you know, is is the most severe consequence you pay. But often the opportunity cost of not getting it right in time means that you're not around long enough to figure that out, right? You're gone before you got to the bet that was going to be the one that led you to the promised land. And man that breaks my heart,
Wil Schroter: you know, we're talking a lot about accelerating marketing. Accelerating product. But we didn't talk too much about the cost of accelerating the wrong people. Yes. The assumption here is that the people that happened to, you know, come together in this merry band of misfits are the right people to accelerate and step back for a second, right? And it's like, okay, are quote CFO is the only person that took an accounting course in college, right? Our developer has never shipped a mobile app before in their life. Right? Our marketing team has never scaled anything beyond like $1,000 a month. Google Edwards spend. Let's go all in on this team, right
Ryan Rutan: again.
Wil Schroter: But we don't know any better because this is the only team we've ever built is the only team that was willing to work with us. So I guess that works. What we need is enough time to see if the team we have sitting around actually scales. You'll find out quickly. Trust me the moment you try to push a bit. But if we go on this assumption that whatever team I happen to have must be good enough for what I'm trying to do, I guarantee that's wrong.
Ryan Rutan: The core point here is that speed and growth and scale. They're all good things right at the right time, right? When it's responsible to do so, but you've got to take it in a measured way such that the acceleration doesn't become the thing that kills you instead of gross ceo. Right? We all want our startups to grow. We all want to be as big as we can. We all want to make that Dent in the universe that we set out to make. We want to make it as big as we can and we want to get there as fast as we can, right. The fastest we can is the important part here because there's a lot of startups and I'm not gonna name any, but there's an entire graveyard out there filled with startups who accelerated off the edge of a curve that they didn't see coming and couldn't survive the pivot, couldn't pull the resources together to bring it back together. Right? So as you think about growing your business, take a beat, give yourself a minute, give yourself permission to take it a little slower and to make sure that you've got the clarity and the time to understand that the bets you're making are paying back or not when it's time to change the direction when it's time to finally step on that gas, right? It's not always crystal clear, but what's crystal clear to me is that far too many people are trying to accelerate far too soon simply because that's the narrative that's been set, don't follow the narrative, follow the circumstances, the consequences and the actual context of your startup company and move at the pace that it's meant to move and that you're mentally did that.
Wil Schroter: Alright, so that was fun. But let's actually keep this conversation going. You've heard what we think about this, but you know, Ryan and I would really like to hear what you think and we're online, like all day long, pretty much talking about every startup topic you could think of from fundraising, the customer acquisition, to just really have to get all of this crazy startup stuff out of your head. And there's tons of other founders just like you, they're weighing in on these topics so you'll get a chance to just hang out and meet some really smart founders were also super, super easy to find. You head over to groups dot startups dot com and let Ryan and I hear what's on your mind, Let's get to know each other a little bit and let's just start having more of these conversations.